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Robert Kiyosaki Why the Rich Get Richer

Robert Kiyosaki, Why the Rich Get Richer

Mutual Funds Get Greedy

by Robert Kiyosaki

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Posted on Monday, February 5, 2007, 12:00AM

I was on a radio program not long ago. My host was a financial planner who was upset about the book Donald Trump and I wrote, "Why We Want You to Be Rich." In the book, Donald and I don't speak highly of mutual funds.

Rather than listening to what I had to say, the interviewer wanted to argue. His position was that Donald and I weren't experts on mutual funds, and had no right to criticize. I agreed that we weren't experts on mutual funds, and reminded the host that Donald I never claimed to be.

An On-Air Dustup

Instead, we were quoting John C. Bogle, a true expert and leader in the mutual fund industry whom I've mentioned before. For those who may not know, John Bogle is the founder of the Vanguard family of funds.

Rather than consider my position -- that Donald and I were not experts, but John Bogle was -- the on-air financial planner defensively said, "John Bogle loves mutual funds."

Again agreeing with him, I replied, "Bogle does love mutual funds. That's why he's upset, because mutual fund investors are being ripped off by mutual fund managers."

Our on-air argument continued for approximately five more minutes. I asked the host if he'd read Bogle's book, "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism." He admitted that he hadn't, and had no future plans to do so. His position was that I had misinterpreted the book and was taking Bogle's statements out of context.

Bogle on Funds

There's a saying that goes, "Minds are like parachutes. They only work when open." Since the radio-show host's mind was closed, and so was mine, I asked to end the interview early. Rather than continue arguing about a book the listening audience couldn't see and the host didn't plan on reading, I decided to make my case here, with Yahoo! Finance readers.

Essentially, John Bogle's position in "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" is that investors -- what he calls the true owners of major corporations and mutual funds -- are being robbed blind by corporation and mutual fund company managers. He refers to it as the shift from owner's capitalism to manager's capitalism.

Most of us have heard about the investors (and true owners) of Enron, WorldCom, and other corporations being fleeced by the likes of Ken Lay, Jeff Skilling, and Bernie Ebbers. Bogle contends that the same type of theft practiced by these men is going on in the mutual fund industry. He doesn't point to just a few bad apples, either -- he fingers the industry as a whole.

To quote Bogle, "Simply put, fund managers have arrogated to themselves an excessive share of the financial markets' returns, and left fund investors with too small a share." Elaborating on that point, Bogle writes, "With today's dividend yields on stocks at about 1.8 percent, a typical equity funds expense ratio consumes fully 80 percent of a fund's income."

As I put it on the air that day, "Eighty percent is a bit greedy."

A Money Vacuum

To illustrate his point, Bogle writes that "while $10,000 invested in the stock market [in 1985] earned a profit of $109,800 [over 20 years], the average mutual fund investor earned a profit of just $29,700. Together, the cost penalty, the timing penalty, and the selection penalty consumed an amazing 73 percent of the profit available simply by buying and holding the stock market itself, leaving the average fund stockholder with a mere 27 percent of the total."

In other words, if investors had invested in the stock market back in 1985, they would have made $109,800 dollars over 20 years. That's including the ups and downs of the market. During the same period, investors who put the same $10,000 in mutual funds made only $29,700.

That's what prompted me to tell the radio interviewer, "That's why mutual funds suck. Not only do they suck 80 percent of the dividends, in come cases they suck another 73 percent of other gains from investors."

I believe my comment was bleeped.

Caveat Emptor

Reading "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism," you begin to understand Bogle's motivation for writing it. As the radio host accurately told me, "John Bogle loves mutual funds." If that financial planner had read the book, he'd understand that that's precisely why Bogle is so frustrated.

Mutual funds are a beautifully conceived investment vehicle designed to provide long-term wealth for passive investors. Sadly, over the years, fund managers have been both legally and illegally ripping off investors who count on their investments to provide a college education for their kids or retirement security for themselves. It seems that mutual fund managers, like the managers of our major corporations, have sold their souls for fast money, and have left the investors behind.

I agree with Bogle's call for more governance from fund managers. If the rip-off continues, it'll be harder to raise money from investors to fund our entrepreneurs and businesses. Many U.S. investors are already investing overseas rather than at home.

Yet regardless of whether or not our capital market leaders tighten the rules and fund managers regain their capitalistic souls, I remind you of a timeless bit of investing wisdom: "Let the buyer beware." Ultimately, it's your money, so be very careful about what you invest in and who you invest with.

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  • Kirkydu - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, 12:48AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 4/5

    The mutual fund industry does rip off the general public. What's ironic, is that the SEC and NASD are primary accomplices in one of the greatest scams in financial history. Although I acknowledge that there are good mutual funds in every catagory- and more at smaller market caps and internationally, that is in less efficient markets- the number of bad funds overwhelms the good. However many times this fact is statistically bourne out or discussed by people with significant financial credentials, i.e. John Bogle, the public misses it. And the SEC and NASD makes it policy to pursuade the public into investing in these underperforming vehicles that neither add return or reduce risk in many cases. And, when the public does start to catch on a reduce fund holdings, the SEC changes rules which would allow at least a sliver of middle America another option (the SEC is in the process of raising accredited investor qualifications past $1,000,000, so that people with "only" a million dollars can not take part in the private investments and other opportunities of the rich and priveledged). If you don't believe that mutual funds are a rip off, subscribe to morningstar and do some research on the actual costs of mutual funds, both management and trading, as well as, the lack of alpha across the large and midcap spectrum of domestic funds. You will realize a few things. First, you don't need much money in the large caps, far far less than most financial planners recommend. Second, what you do have in large caps should be value oriented and managed by smaller firms.

  • Steve - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, 2:28PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    That's why you buy funds that OUTPERFORM the market. This article adds no value to people who have common sense..

  • John A - Saturday, March 17, 2007, 7:29PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    It's sad when a financial expert like Robert Kiyosaki gets ripped for things he did not say. Robert's comments on mutual fund managers is documented and supported by facts about the size of the commissions and fees being taken. This does not require expertise in mutual fund management to understand the expense. As a small business consultant on financial and expense control, I advise on financial management concepts and tools common to all business. I do not have to be a restaurant owner or manager to understand waste when I see it. Thank you, RK, for warning American investors who do not read people like Bogle.

  • Matthew - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, 3:27PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Journal of Public Finance has a recent article that shows 80-90% of all mutual funds are outperformed by the passively managed index funds. An actively managed fund is supposed to outperform the indexes, that is why you supposedly pay more for "active" management. But, they do worse 80-90% of the time, due largely to what RK describes.

  • JT - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, 10:51AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 4/5

    I can understand why many financial consultants or advisors fear RK. He's frank anh honest. I kept receiving emails and calls from stock pros who tell me they have the next best stocks. When I check those stocks for a few weeks, they are just deadbeat stocks. What RK is telling you is you got to find the right investments that consistently produce cash. Without cash and when the market drop, your investments may not be ready to turn into cash quickly or you may force to sell your investments at a huge loss. The best way is to make sure you have good investments goals and have plenty cash ready any unforseen disasters (market or personal events).

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Monday, March 5, 2007, 7:23PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    Kiyosaki fails to point out that the biggest reason individual investors fail to get the maximum from their investment is because of their own actions. There are numerous fund that out perform the market if you just hold them. Individuals usually buy and sell at the worst times rather than being long term investors. This is a major frustration to fund managers who have to keep cash available for redemptions by their shareholders who buy when they should be selling and sell when they should be buying. This cash position also reduces returns in the long run. I believe John Bogle would agree with the forgoing. Generally I am disappointed that Kiyosaki is held up as an investment expert in all areas, which he is not.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Thursday, March 1, 2007, 10:07PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    I am an avid fan of robert kiyosaki's works, and it really saddens me that people who make such illogical comments. This article is a good read and very insightful to a common person's mind. I think people should think first before they say anything, or better else, how about they write a book that explains all that complex issues in finance like Robert does? I think that will make them silent for a while.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Thursday, March 1, 2007, 12:33PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    If people would look into RK's articles and books, they would realize he has little if any facts to back up his simple-minded and self-promoting advice. This idiot has made his money selling his books. What amazes me is that people make comments like, "he made his money this way" or "he has millions more than you do so he must know what he's talking about", or "sound advice" even when RK is flat out wrong. Were these people there when he made all his real estate transactions? Did they personally know "Rich Dad"? Do the math and then you'll realize where his money comes from: 26 million books sold, board games at $200 a piece and costly seminars. Gee, RK must be and expert bc he has so much money.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Tuesday, February 27, 2007, 5:04PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 4/5

    Seems like a couple of guys here have some personal axe to grind with RK. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they were precisely the type of individuals who basically fund their own existence by "leeching" off of returns that are actually being earned with the capital of others. As far as criticism of his selected "favorite" investments (real estate, precious metals); that's his comfort zone. Personally I find his blunt, common-sense approach very effective. His refusal to buy into the personal finance methodology espoused by "conventional wisdom" is precisely what has allowed him to succeed financially. And he shares this simple insight here on Yahoo where it's free for everyone. The only "catch" is that you must be of sufficient intelligence to comprehend it. In a nutshell, there are bountiful opportunities for wealth generation in every economic climate. But you must be an intelligent, discriminating buyer, regardless of investment type. The "crowd" isn't comprised of wealthy individuals. So why would you follow it?

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Monday, February 26, 2007, 1:11AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    Again some small points are made by RK but ultimately the writing and advice is quite poor. RK seems lazy, perhaps he's just a bad writer. If you want real advice on mutual funds read the book "A RANDOM WALK DOWN WALLSTREET BY BURTON G. MALKIEL. His great book shows that over the long term (30 years) mutual funds almost never beat the index funds. Index funds are great for must investors, with low expenses and great results long term. RK should have told people to look at index funds. Or if you wanted more risk for possible more reward look at lower cost mutual funds. Expense charges usually don't mean a better fund. But to disregard mutual funds altogether (RK loves metals and real estate) is just plain stupid. Read a Random Walk Down Wallstreet it is extremely worth the time!

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Sunday, February 25, 2007, 6:05PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 3/5

    setting aside any criticism of RK's credentials or perceived knowledge of mutual funds, i think he sheds light on certain areas of mutual fund investing that passive or non-saavy investors may not realize. for all those trashing these articles, what makes you think that "unsophisticated" investors have any clue that a 3% management fee or 6% front end load is absurd, especially for a fund providing mediocre returns? the truth is, there are mutual funds out there that thrive not only on these high fees but also on the fact that they have brokers peddling them like crack to clients that don't know any better. the thing we as investors should remember is that there ARE funds out there that are exploiting people, but there are also funds that outperform with relatively small fees. personally, i don't mind paying a 1.10% annual fee on my fund that has provided me an average return of 19% for the past 5 years. people, you just need to be careful.. do some research!

  • health1_au - Saturday, February 24, 2007, 4:27AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Wow! I'm glad some of you are in the market (like the uninformed oneputtsteven) so I can take your money! With some people, it seems like they never went to primary school - and never heard great stories like the one with the tortoise and the hare! Keep buying your actively managed funds with their high fees – it makes them happy on Wall Street… not to mention at the IRS – with all that turnover.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Friday, February 23, 2007, 5:03PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    Once again Mr. Kiyosaki makes comments about things of which he has little knowledge. Mr. Boogle promotes low cost funds particularly index funds. After all it is very difficult to beat the indexes. Personnally I invest in some index funds but also with high quality mutual fund managers who beat the indexes fairly often. Mr. Boogles comments about the average poor return for mutual fund investors is true but it involves human nature as he stated. Investors consistantly sell funds that are lagging the markets to buy the hot funds. Most notably in recent years is the internet bubble funds which lost the majority of their fund members money. Most of the true mutual fund rip-offs come about from financial planners who put people into high load, high expense mutual funds to gain sizable commissions. I see little value in owning most real estate and precious metals because the value over time only mirrors inflation. Stocks are also a hedge for inflation because the value of their assets also increase; plus you get the extra kick of asset building and dividends. In his earlier articles he talked about giving a kid the advise of buying silver coins. I made the comment that he should hord pennies. Now it is illegal to melt pennies and nickels because the metal content is greater than the face value. I recall that our government at one point made it illegal to own gold coins. Coins held for their metal worth is not investing.

  • Christopher - Friday, February 23, 2007, 12:27AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    Kiyosaki may be the greatest con man of all time. Compound returns on total market US equity index funds over several years have crushed every other asset class, PARTICULARLY REAL ESTATE and PRECIOUS METALS which he pimps tirelessly. I'm not sure that I have ever seen a more incompetent babbling fool con so many people into believing he is an expert with unique and valuable insight. Yahoo should be ashamed of itself for giving him a platform. I can't wait until he espouses the virtues of MLM schemes as a sure-fire path to wealth. I'm sure we'll be seeing that in one of his columns soon. What a grindle.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Wednesday, February 21, 2007, 6:35PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Truly enlightenging for a passive investor with much desire to become an active investor! Thank you. The question is what do I do with the last 17 years of investing in mutual funds? MCRobson

  • Louis G - Wednesday, February 21, 2007, 3:23PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 3/5

    I agree and I disagree at the same time. I think his anger is directed in the wrong place. The problem here ( and there is in deed a problem) is not the mutual funds, but the managers instead. INvesting in the market directly may be better but most people don't have the resources to buy individual stocks and at the same time properly diversify thier investments. (You can't buy half a share of IBM and with costs of 8-12 dollars a trade it doesn't make sense to do so anyway). That is where Mutual funds come in. They allow the average investor to take advantage of overall market index performance, something that they could never do before. Mutual funds have brought the ability to invest in the market to the masses. Mr. Kiyosaki would say that cars suck because so many people are killed by them every year.. when infact the problem is the person behind the wheel, not the car. Maybe he should have said that greedy mutual fund managers suck.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Wednesday, February 21, 2007, 2:16AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    "If investors had invested in the stock market back in 1985, they would have made $109,800 dollars over 20 years. That's including the ups and downs of the market. During the same period, investors who put the same $10,000 in mutual funds made only $29,700" This statement alone is reason enough to remove this guy from Yahoo Finance. The statement, like the rest of the article, is completely misleading and plain wrong. A fund with such poor performance would have gone out of business long time ago. Take the American Funds, most of the funds in its family yielded more than the index over that time period

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Tuesday, February 20, 2007, 4:10PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    This guy is a clown. He writes: ""That's why mutual funds suck. Not only do they suck 80 percent of the dividends, in come cases they suck another 73 percent of other gains from investors." No, they don't suck 80 percent of the dividends AND 73 percent of other gains. It's just 73 percent total. The calculation of the stock market return since 1985 includes a dividend reinvestment assumption. It's true that the average mutual fund is a poor investment compared to a low-cost market index mutual fund. But it's better than the nonsense Kiyosaki peddles.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Sunday, February 18, 2007, 11:59PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 4/5

    Thanks for sharing the great insight about managers taking over Capitalism from the owners. How true. As far as mutual funds go, they serve a great purpose as a place for people who don't want to educate themselves, do the research and manage their own money. The trade-off is that you have to pay someone else to do it for you. I could change the oil on my car, but I choose to pay someone else to do it (and I'm happy that they offer that service!). About performance - there are so many funds out there that roughly half will beat the index and half will not. When you add in fees, less than half will beat the average. There are active managers who consistently beat the index, or do so over time. It's your job as an investor to find them. If you don't even want to do that, then hire an advisor to do it for you. Once again, there is a cost attached to that decision called a front end load. You decide. We all have to make decisions. There's a person on this board who is griping about buying an India mutual fund (after it went up 80%), because he only made 1% over the past 9 months. Of course he's blaming the fees, rather than his greed and impatience. This is the same guy who is still licking his wounds from putting all of his life's savings in tech stocks in late 1999 and early 2000. Right now he's probably trading in that India fund for a Real Estate fund. The bottom line is that, as investors, our behaviors and decisions are going to be the biggest determinants of our outcome. Stop looking to authors like Kiyosaki and Bogle to make you feel better about your mistakes. We are a nation of victims, and best selling authors know this well.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Sunday, February 18, 2007, 10:35PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    A dumb is and will always be a dumb. Go Kiyosaki. Kiyosaki is right. Peter F Drucker also said that Mutual Fund managers are 'criminals.' Read: Drucker, Peter F. The Daily Drucker. HarperBusiness, 2004. p. 25. And for the morons out there, Kiyosaki has many times said, that the best investment is active investment, which is to control your investments, not just watching them. As the ultimate example, look at the Venture Capitalists. They invest in a company stocks and control its major policy (not the details, just the principal policies). If you do not like Kiyosaki's articles, why the hell you read them? You do not need them anyway, do you? That is just a proof that you are losers, because losers wasting time. Their own time, and others' time.

  • Neil - Sunday, February 18, 2007, 8:44PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Indeed. Where are the customer's yachts?

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Sunday, February 18, 2007, 5:27PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    I'm glad to hear this out in the open. Most planners and brokers push mutual funds and yet I have always found very poor actual returns from them. Everyone seems to benefit except the investor!!

  • Ernest - Sunday, February 18, 2007, 9:21AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 1/5

    I think he is just using this site to peddle more of his books.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Sunday, February 18, 2007, 12:16AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Kiyosaki offers the basics to many amateurs, providing the opportunity to see how 'it works' and what needs to be done to get started.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Friday, February 16, 2007, 3:10PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    I whole-heartedly agree. Mutual Funds buyers must beware and do not trust the statistics? A recent addition to my portfolio, Eaton Vance Greater India Fund Class A [ETGIX], has a 5 star Morningstar rating and the same research shows load-adjusted returns of 23.18% for last 6 months and 18.72% for 1 year. I purchased shares of this fund on 4/27/06 and with dividends re-invested I have an actual return of 1.5% to date. My reason for this purchase was the advertised returns, Morningstar rating and desire to enter the India market. This fund has a 5.75% up-front sales charge and expense ratio of 2.35%. Now these statistics exemplify – GREED! Lesson learned, buy ETF’s!

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Friday, February 16, 2007, 1:21PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Bogle let's his actions speak loud and clear-check his fund's expenses vs.most of the others-Silkman

  • Adam M - Friday, February 16, 2007, 8:04AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 4/5

    Again Kiyosaki is on the money. Unfortuately we humans are over optimists when it comes to cash. We love the idea of deligating our own responsibility to somebody else, returning in 12 months and accepting high double digit returns. I agree the idea of Mutual Funds is fantastic, but the reality is self evident. Life Robert says if you like funds, do your homework. Find a Soros, or a Lynch, and monitor their performance. Funds are not for me, but I know this, if you do like them, there are funds available that will give you great returns. You just have to get off ur behind, do some work and find them. Like finding any other investment, it doesn't just fall into your lap.

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Friday, February 16, 2007, 1:46AM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Sheeeesh, some of these comments are just ridiculous. Kiyosaki, like myself, is a financial control freak. While I can not comment too deeply on mutual fund ripoffs, I am qualified to comment as an active equities investor, trader, and self made millionaire. To me, mutual funds, as an investment vehicle, are foolish. They don't make much sense if your objective is to amass great wealth in a short period of time... which is fundamental to becoming truly financially free. I think that many of the negative comments here may stem from those individuals who earn a decent middle-class six figure income working a day job and are disturbed by the possibility that they may not be managing their money well enough to retire at 62. I was in your position once too. I worked hard in school and earned two engineering degrees (Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering). I got out into the world and worked for others for 3 years before I decided I wanted to retire before 30. Actually, I decided I didn't want to be working when my Wife and I decided to have children. I slowly let the academic ideal of success (working for a living) faze out of my life and began my journey to freedom. While it did take several years (it didn't happen overnight), I was soon a 20 something millionaire - laaaate 20 somethings. Was it easy, no... but the difficulty was embedded in the paradigm shift in thinking, not the actual wealth building... that part was very challenging but very fun. So please, don't hate the guy for telling it like he sees it. I don't agree with everything he has to say, it is much too black and white at times. However, his underlying message has rung true in my life, and my other wealthy friends as well. Why does he so hate mutual funds? Because he has no control over them... that is the same reason you shouldn't like them. However, if you don't have the time or inclination to manage your own money, then, sure, they may be a viable option... but at that point I'd be more inclined to put my money into the s&p500 or BEP and stop paying the management fees.

  • DaSavvi1 - Thursday, February 15, 2007, 10:53PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 4/5

    I have read most of the comments about Kiyosaki latest article. First, I am a big fan of Kiyosaki as a Rich Dad Insider I get first hand knowledge from Kiyosaki and his advisors. He knows all the one stars comments hates his guts. Second, all investments are great, we just have poor investors who are uneducated. I don't blame the fund managers even though they can't tell you anymore than you can tell yourself. Most high risk investments will not let average person invest in any of it's products because of the high risk. Kiyosaki, Trump, and Bogle all got their money so we should at listen to some of the things they are saying they're just telling us how they are ripping us off and we are allowing it to happen. And you thought you college degree meant something. shi.................!!!

  • Yahoo! Finance User - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 7:22PM ET  Report Abuse

    • Overall: 5/5

    Nooo -- good investments are companies (good and bad) underpriced -- stock price will rise faster than market -- you know / sense something that the market does not -- and not insider information. For advice -- suggest you check into H Blodgett (syndicated on Slate), Uncommon Success (Swensen), Random Walk Down Wall Street (Malkiel). A good company, that is good and everyone knows it -- is fairly priced and not an especially good investment! (By analogy -- you won't get a great deal on a house in great condition in a great location -- you will get a fair deal -- you will pay market price.)

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