I find the instructions confusing, in part because PTP’s are generally treated differently/separately in the various IRS publications. In regard to net gains being treated as nonpassive income, I was mostly referring to the Partner’s Instructions for Schedule K-1 (Form 1065), but it is similar to the 8582 instructions. Of course, the instructions for PTP’s also state that you are not supposed to report on Form 8582, but just use the worksheets for recordkeeping. I see nothing explicit about PTP’s and gifts (even in the IRC section), so perhaps the default treatment is the same as you stated.
actually if you look at how much ordinary income they received they made plenty of money on kinder.
They just don't want to pay up on the deferred taxes. I presume some of them already spent it.
But I do agree, if the whiners would spend the time researching and understanding their investments this wouldn't have been such a big issue for them with the ioption of investing some in KMR istead of KMP.
From reading the long time holder posts I surmise the following happened. Rich Kinder went door to door representing himself as a insurance agent selling tax free lifetime Annuities . Only two weeks ago did they learn they were Limited Partners in a Master Limited Partnership that transported sticky petroleum stuff. I doubt that happened but what I get from reading posts:) Phil
if you and all the whiners spent as much time looking for the next kmp type trade, as you have whining and complaining you might just make enough more money to pay some of the taxes
Being a CPA does not mean you are a income tax expert. I would find a certified Enrolled Agent with experience and if he was also a CPA all the better.
The last time that I posted websites and email addresses, the message was removed from the board. Yahoo seems to prevent/eliminate any posts with things like h -- p or h - ml or 3 w’s in web address and the “at” symbol for email addresses. Note: “-” = “t” in this message. Anyway, you can file both of the two forms described below because they may go to different parts of the SEC.
One of the form locations on the SEC site is the listed below, but you need to put h -- ps followed by : / / at the front and . xh - ml at the end of what I wrote below. You can file consider filing this form more than once since there are at least a couple of options that could fit as reasons for the complaint, but clearly material misstatement (i.e., more colloquially known as “lying”) in public filings is certainly one reason.
denebo . sec . gov / TCRExternal / questionnaire
Another somewhat simpler form that you can also file is at the next address below, but you need to add h -- ps followed by : / / in the front and . h - ml at the end.
tts . sec . gov / oiea / Complaint
More generally, you can go to the SEC address below (but add h -- p followed by : / / followed by 3 w’s at the beginning and . sh - ml at the end). This page has links that will also lead directly to the first complaint form above.
sec . gov / complaint / tipscomplaint
You can get to at least some of the above addresses by googling “SEC online complaint forms”.
I think your comment about the PTP instructions saying that net income from a PTP is nonpassive is based on the Form 8582 instructions. The comment in those instructions has limited application. It says you can treat the net income as investment income for purposes of deducting net investment interest expense. I think there's another implication the instructions mention, but it's fairly limited.
And keep in mind that if you gift the MLP to your son, you don't have any gain. You don't have anything on your Form 1040. And the IRS still thinks the rule I mentioned is current law since they quoted it in the current edition of Publication 925.
I'm certainly no expert and everything you've said seems correct, but the advantage might be more easily reached than some might think. Obviously, the wider the difference in tax brackets, the more the advantage (and especially if state taxes are a consideration). If the units have been held a long time, then there will be sizable capital gains, even if the basis is increased by the passive losses. If the son’s taxable income (line 43, Form 1040) is less than $36250 (2013 amount), it is possible that he could have 0% tax on all the capital gains and qualified dividends, which is quite an advantage. (The total for capital gains and qualified dividends would need to be more than line 43 for the 0% rate to apply completely.) The ordinary gains under these circumstances (i.e., line 43 less than $36,250 in 2013) would be taxed at the 10/15% levels).
One question (related to this thread) I have is if there are any differences in the gift rules for PTP’s. The PTP instructions in various IRS publications state that, when there is an overall gain, the NET gain is NOT treated as passive income (it’s treated as nonpassive income). Hence, are you sure the gift rule about passive losses still applies?
Another point (not related to your comment) is that more than $14000 per year per donee can be given if someone wants to dip into their “lifetime exclusion.”
Nancy Google Security Exchange Commission. Top of page hit link "Education" then file a tip or complaint. I did not go farther than that because iam a happy boy with no complaint:) Phil
There's a trade-off, and either you or your accountant will have to run a tax projection for both you and your son to see what the taxes would be on a sale of KMP. If you don't gift the units to your son, but instead sell them yourself or exchange them for the KMI shares, your tax bracket will be higher, but you will be able to deduct your passive loss carryover, which will reduce your ordinary portion of your gain on the sale/exchange. If you gift the units to your son, his tax bracket will be lower, but he won't have a passive loss carryover; instead he will have a higher tax basis in his KMP units, which will reduce the capital gain portion of the deal. It's a number crunching exercise.
Of course, you could gift a portion of your KMP units to your son. I assume you and your accountant will work it out. Good luck.
From IRS Publication 925, page 12: Dispositions by gift. If you give away your interest in a passive activity, the unused passive activity losses allocable to the interest cannot be deducted in any tax year. Instead, the basis of the transferred interest must be increased by the amount of these losses.
So if you gift the units, you lose the loss carryover. It just increases your son's basis in the units. Most times, that's a really bad answer. If the KMP deal goes through this year, it's not that important. Unless, of course, your son's tax bracket is significantly different from yours. How old is he? Does the kiddie tax apply?
In any case, the answer you think you got from your accountant was wrong.
Im not sure I understand will run this by my accountant. When I spoke to him he said I could transfer to my son the shares and that I would retain all the passive losses I had accumulated. and he retains my cost on the shares I transfer to him.
Sjohns done quite well with KMP last few years, thank you. There are rules of president and law to handle mergers without the BS. I do understand everyone wants as much as possible but it is what it is. It would suit me if there was no merger so I would not lose my best trading vehicle but Oh Well ! Not my call. Best of luck to all real non weasels.
since the reorg is supposed to close in Q4 2014, I would go with KMI initially and avoid the conversion (from buying KMP now and getting some cash back that would have to be reinvested). At today's prices, the KMI dividend yield in 2015 should be just over 5.0%, rising by 10% pa up to 8.0% on cost in 2020. there should be capital appreciation as well over that period absent a general market collapse.