>> I was an experienced PM at SAPE and
after a year of pain and suffering left.
Did you actually get to do PM-type work, or was that
really being done by the DoD (or at least to his/her
I can support the message that Name____ is
sending. I was an experienced PM at SAPE and after a year
of pain and suffering left. Why? Because I wanted to
create true value using approaches that were a mix of my
prior experience and the SAPE teachings. The real
problem was that my Director, a product of SAPE from day
one of his career could not imagine that there were
any other approaches than the SAPE method. (Tunnel
Vision) So I finally found a new organization that is
open and that is a learning organization.
a great place for green followers to learn some
interesting approaching. SAPE is bad place for those who view
the world in many dimensions.
As for an investment opportunity, I am not qualified
to judge. I will leave that to others?
>> I do sit here and ponder what the heck
happened to such an intelligent, creative, aggressive,
energetic person like you at Sapient?
Perhaps he saw others with less intelligence and
creativity excel at SAPE because the toed the company line.
>>ith0789, I don't think it's proper for
you to rebuke someone for not living up to Mr.
Greenberg standards unless you are like Mr. Greenberg
yourself. May we know if YOU have a consulting firm, small
as it may be? And if you do, we'll compare you
against Bill Gates... he was even younger than that,
wasn't he? Oh mighty Sapient, the breeder of Bill
This is clearly a well thought-out argument...I think
you missed the point entirely. I was not rebuking
Mary for not living up to Jerry Greenberg's standards;
rather, my point was that even though someone may not
have as many years as you do (I'm guessing here that
you are older than 24), that doesn't dismiss their
abilities. I never laid claim to being a Jerry Greenberg, I
was merely countering an argument by someone who
claimed that her age made her better at managing
projects. She saw the humor (as you clearly did not) in my
comment. My goal was not to diminish her capabilities, but
merely to provide a counter-argument.
your other points, it's not that the things you say
don't have merit and that people shouldn't believe
them; clearly Sapient and every other consulting firm
have both supporters and detractors. That's life. It's
just that your "hard facts" are just as colored by
your perspective as are those of staunch supporters.
I echo what's been said. ff9685, do your research.
Talk to LOTS of people on the inside if you can, and
get many perspectives. One person's "to die for"
company may be another person's hell. Like anything, it's
all a matter of perspective. Keep in mind, however,
that anywhere you go in the IT consulting world, you
WILL work hard. Any shop that tells you that they are
perfect at managing projects and that they never run into
trouble is shoveling it deep. Make sure you ask insiders
(on the phone, not over the Net) how they handle it.
And, lastly, ask about an equity stake in the company
(before you become a "partner"). Not many consulting
firms, except CATP, EDS and Sapient offer much in the
way of that. At least if you're working that hard,
you should be getting something back.
Sapient as an investment, it stands more to reason that
the prospects are better than Amazon's due to the
fact that the company actually has earnings, and good
ones to boot. Hopefully they will continue as
>>He who has brains, let him use it.
I do not intend on turning
this into a dating chat line however I must say I am
beginning to admire you for your spunk, energy and
Although I do sit here and ponder what
the heck happened to such an intelligent, creative,
aggressive, energetic person like you at Sapient?
> It's extremely difficult for there to be an
ulterior motive to that, no?
Like maybe earning your
pay as Sapient morale reinforce? As remarked by
as2603 in #246, we who write here do it entirely for
altruistic reasons... ff9685, by all means please do contact
Sapient HR. You have already got a fine sample of their
lemon to taste. Many who speak out here like it, maybe
you will too. But then again, looks like many others
do not... Oh, of course! I forgot that everyone who
badmouths Sapient is either a short seller or fascist
imperialist lackey and a traitor to the
ith0789, I don't think it's proper for you to rebuke
someone for not living up to Mr. Greenberg standards
unless you are like Mr. Greenberg yourself. May we know
if YOU have a consulting firm, small as it may be?
And if you do, we'll compare you against Bill
Gates... he was even younger than that, wasn't he? Oh
mighty Sapient, the breeder of Bill Gates...
fact worth noting would be that the supporters of
Sapient are not willing to admit even a slightest fault
with the company, despite the hard facts presented.
C'mon guys! Really that much of the Workers' Paradise?
or it fails to exist because the Holy Inquisition
says it does not? Hence rather challenging though not
quite unfamiliar patterns of discussion... indeed, why
would one believe that people are running away from
Sapient when the mercenary of international capitalists
who dares to whisper his dirty lies into the ears of
weak and undisciplined, does not make his true
identity known? The case is hereby dismissed. Do you
really want me to? What about dropping me your email?
As for whether Sapient is a good
investment opportunity - not being an expert I dare not to
speculate. For the past year it was. But so was
Amazon.com... Will it grow 50% over next year as was proclaimed
by the "experts" here on this board? Will it grow
5%? Will it shrink 30%? Will it go under SEC
investigation? Don't bet your life savings on either. Just
remember that Sapient is not good employer only because it
might be good investment, a fault of reasoning commonly
made by Sapient proponents.
Oh well, I'm off.
Still do not understand why I got my emotions to take
better of me. He who has brains, let him use it.
Graduating Very Soon,
Let me give you some
sound advice: don't take everything you hear on any
type of message board at face value. In fact, take it
with an entire salt shaker and some MSG.
need to be able to make your own decisions based on
information you can state the name of a source of. (Sory,
"Name____" does not qualify as the name of a source.) This
isn't just limited to investment information, either.
You shouldn't use chat boards for a stock tip, and
you shouldn't use them for employment research.
Reason being, you have absolutely no idea if any of
these people have ulterior motives, or really are who
they say they are. It's entirely too easy to sound
sincere and secretly be holding some puts or shorts in
the stock laughing as it goes down.
having reservations about going to work for SAPE, it's
entirely possible that they are justified. But rather than
jumping off a cliff because some anonymous individual
says so, it just might make more sense to call your HR
contact at SAPE and ask for a real person to talk to,
bounce some ideas off them, etc. If they believe in
themselves as a company, they should offer somebody to talk
to. You could possibly even ask for somebody who was
in your situation a year ago. And if the person
confirms what's been said on this board, and you're not
confortable with that, then you have a basis for jumping off
the cliff. If they don't, and they look/sound
perfectly honest about what they're saying, then maybe you
should step away from the cliff instead.
careful, and don't do anything rash because some nobody
(And yes, I'm a nobody as well... but
I'm just trying to help you learn to make your own
decisions. It's extremely difficult for there to be an
ulterior motive to that, no? :)
>> why do you assume that Sapient PM's
don't have positive relationships with their clients?
I don't think I meant to imply that, only to
respond to your question as to what actions I take when a
project begins to head south.
Touche re: Mr.
>>In fact, what's typically gone wrong is
that the mural-sized MS Project chart became just
that, a mural, and not a living, breathing organism
which evolves with the project. And it's not MS Project
(or any other PM tool) that gets one through the
rough times. It is, instead, a positive relationship
with one's client that will weather the
I don't argue with that point, but please read the
entire post; you restated what I said in different
words. Still, why do you assume that Sapient PM's don't
have positive relationships with their clients? Is
this based on the info provided by your one "insider"?
>>FYI, I'm self-employed and have been for 20+ years. I
started out at about age 24 (imagine that!) as a contract
programmer and have grown that into a small consulting
FYI - Jerry Greenberg started
Sapient at the age of 24 and has grown that into a LARGE
consulting practice. Sorry...couldn't resist... ;-)
>> what information do you have that leads
you to believe that all of Sapient's PM's are 24 and
have no outside experience besides QUADD?
I didn't say all the PMs are 24, but some of them
are, having been "promoted" to that position of
necessity because of lack of other experienced staff. As to
my source, obviously that person needs to remain
anonymous, but it's a SAPE employee.
always look great in MS-Project on a giant wall-sized
plot. But what happens when things go wrong on your
Things always go wrong, and it's
the mark of the experienced PM to keep a level head
and not to look for someone else to blame. In fact,
what's typically gone wrong is that the mural-sized MS
Project chart became just that, a mural, and not a
living, breathing organism which evolves with the
project. And it's not MS Project (or any other PM tool)
that gets one through the rough times. It is, instead,
a positive relationship with one's client that will
weather the storm.
FYI, I'm self-employed and have
been for 20+ years. I started out at about age 24
(imagine that!) as a contract programmer and have grown
that into a small consulting practice.