America is SUPPOSED to be a country where everyone obeys all the laws. Illegals, all violators of the country's laws, are DEMANDING they be excused as violators of the country's laws. Congress is toying with the idea of excusing them. Think about it, if they can be excused of violating the law, citizens should be excused also.
Which laws would you like to be excused for? I know the prisons are full of people that would like to be excused.
You: "My reasoning for them not paying taxes is the same you use for why they don't go to the hospital. These people are all about flying under the radar."
And how do you square that with the SSA who claims that 3/4 of them are in fact paying income taxes? Sorry Joe, the Government is not perfect, but I'm willing to take their unbiased estimate as being more factually based than your mere conjecture. And the fact that you reject that estimate tells a lot about your rational approach to this issue.
You: "Do you think employers want to explain taxes they collected and submitted for undocumented workers?"
They don't have to explain anything.
You: "Big business puts the screws to the American public on a daily basis, and one of the reasons they can is because of the cheap illegal labor that they have unfettered access to due to our governments total disregard for the issue."
And so why are you blaming the immigrant?
You: "What proof do we have that the earnings suspense file is totally due to tax collected on illegal immigrants? Certainly we can assume that a portion of it is, that is simple logic, but we can't determine the actual percentage."
No, we can't. We could simply assume that it's all from legitimate citizens, but the people who contributed just decided they'd walk away from their benefits and tax refunds, but that's pretty absurd. You're really grasping at straws, Joe. Why would SSA bother to concoct such an explanation? They have no bias or axe to grind on that issue.
You: "I believe we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. You appear to believe illegal immigration is a non-issue, while I feel that it is an increasing problem that is affecting us in numerous ways including culturally."
Joe, you're mischaracterizing my position. Let me be clear on this. I do NOT think illegal immigration is a non-issue. I DO think it is an issue on which people refuse to look at the facts, and instead rely upon emotion, and I don't agree that emotional decisions are ever any good. I have never felt that being exposed to a broader range of cultures was a "problem." Apparently I give people more credibility than you do to see and experience other cultures, and not forego their own. If it is shown that illegal immigrants are a net burden on this country, and not a net benefit, then I think we have to weigh out those and arrive at a rational decision whether or not the burden is worth it.
Maybe you don't know this, but U.S. citizens birthrates have fallen dramatically. You seem to be one of the rare youngsters still having a large family. When I was a kid, 5-children or larger families were the norm. Today most of my friends have 1, 2 at the most. Face it, our working labor pool is shrinking if we are relying on our own citizens to breed it. Do you want your children to be saddled with supporting 3 or 4 SS retirees? Immigration contributes to our labor pool in a way that having children does not.
As I said, I'm open minded on the issue, but I am not willing to accept the hysterical doomsday rants that I have seen so far. The Lou Dobbs types, etc., who do, as you have so far, reject actual facts in order to put forth argument based on bias and emotion, nothing else.
Hey moron, where did I say anybody should be excused from anything? If you'd bother to read, and not simply project your insecurities and hate, you'd see that I have said no such thing. I am simply saying we should make this decision based on reality and facts, not emotion and conjecture. Simple as that.
If you think that means I am advocating for anarchy, well, what can I say - you're stupid.
As far as I know people in the U.S. are constantly breaking laws and expecting to be excused for it. Think about that the next time you speed. Or fudge your charitable contributions on your tax return. Or sell something you own without declaring it as income. I'll bet you break laws all the time, and expect to be excused for it.
You are so right. I do not think people in this country fully understand what could or will happen if amnesty is given. Think about this the libs would love a new power base. Most of the immigrants are uneducated and they will need more government help and for votes our liberal politicians will pander to them and the middle class will pay. Sure glad I have my pension I just hope you young people get yours before it is given to the illegal immigrants.
My reasoning for them not paying taxes is the same you use for why they don't go to the hospital. These people are all about flying under the radar. Paying tax is not flying under the radar for the immigrant, or more importantly the employer. Do you think employers want to explain taxes they collected and submitted for undocumented workers? I will admit to emotional attachment to the issue, but I am not being totally irrational. Big business puts the screws to the American public on a daily basis, and one of the reasons they can is because of the cheap illegal labor that they have unfettered access to due to our governments total disregard for the issue.
What proof do we have that the earnings suspense file is totally due to tax collected on illegal immigrants? Certainly we can assume that a portion of it is, that is simple logic, but we can't determine the actual percentage.
I believe we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. You appear to believe illegal immigration is a non-issue, while I feel that it is an increasing problem that is affecting us in numerous ways including culturally.
""Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration."
Okay, Joe, how does that square with your bald statement that "The majority of these workers, don't pay taxes or declare their income."
Honestly, guy, I have always had a great deal of respect for you, but on this issue it seems you are willing to simply overlook the facts and rely on your emotion, and that's not the least bit flattering.
You: "Did it ever occur to you that the reason for the $200 asprin is to recoup what they can't collect from non payers?"
Yes, it has. I rejected that for a number of reasons. First, hospitals charged that kind of price in the 1950s and 1960s, well before this current xenophobia about illegal immigrants started. Second, illegal immigrants are not eligible for medicare and medicaid, and that is primarily where hospitals make their money. Come on, Joe, you're a bright guy. Do you really think that illegal immigrants are responsible? They're what, 11M or 12M out of 320M? Do the math. The entire population of illegal immigrants amounts to maybe 3% of everybody here. You think that they all get sick and go to the hospital? Based on experience here, they don't go.
I have to say this is the only issue I've ever seen you debate in which I have to conclude you are throwing rationale thought out the window in favor of emotion. Why on earth would people who fear being deported be pouring into hospitals for free medical care? Hospital costs are primarily driven by poor U.S. citizens who use emergency rooms as their sole source of medical care. They call 9/11 and go to the emergency room for minor first aid.
You: "You believe that the amount we save in harvested crops offsets medical costs?"
I suspect it far dwarfs it. Just my guess, but as far as I can recall 100% of the population eats, whereas a tiny percentage goes to hospitals. But hey, as I said before, I'm perfectly willing to be convinced otherwise. Just find some facts to show me, and I'll look at them with an open mind.
You: "I'm sure a study into that math would be both time consuming and costly, but I would wager a guess that the discounted rate for harvesting food does not make up the difference."
How about looking at something simple, like the value of the agriculture industry as compared to the hospital industry? I'll check around, but I think based on nothing more than my experience, people pay more for food than for medicine over the course of a lifetime. Far more.
You: "please show me a link where anybody from the SSA has indicated they collect 50 billion a year in SS from illegals."
"Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.
The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.
In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes."
You: "The majority of these workers, don't pay taxes or declare their income."
And you know that how? Do they get some sort of "tax-free" card that allows them to buy gasoline without paying Federal tax on it? They're not charged sales taxes at stores? Joe, you're being irrational.
O.K. we all have opinions, in my case I am opposed to illegal immigration so what.All this talk accomplishes absolutely nothing, today the illegals are demonstrating and we twiddle our thumbs. That's about the size of it.