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  • konokokid konokokid Feb 2, 2003 1:25 PM Flag

    The Wall Is Down

    Ex-ARCO's best and brightest could only stomach so much of the way Phillips dumbed down the Alaska operations, so they left to Houston.

    Over-managed, no investment, no projects, problems with under-performance. Alaska, what a great place to work. Good thing the new governor is a close personal friend of the Phillips Alaska president.

    Hey, Houston beats the hell out of the bible-thumpers in Bartlesville.

    When oil price settles down, Phillips in Alaska will be a scuttled wreck.

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    • "I should not under the Law be force to subsidizes your groups pagan views by use of a gov't building I'm helping pay for!! "

      You dollars would no more be subsidizing his pagan views than they are supporting a gay rights meeting, pro or antiabortion group meeting there, the boy scouts meeting there, etc. If the school allows ANY group to use the facilities (and most do) then the bible study group has just as much right to use that facility (under similar conditions.)

      There are MANY causes they gov't supports (some directly, others indirectly) that I don't want to see my dollars supporting, but I/we don't get to pick where our taxes go. That is a fact of life for living in a representative republic.

      Quite simply allowing a religious based organization to use public facilities does not establish a religion nor does it violate the infamous (and to many dubious) seperation church and state.

    • ""The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor a federal government can set up a church. Neither can they pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can it force nor influence a person to go to or remain away form churches against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbelief's, for church attendance, or non attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion." Majority Supreme Court opinion written by Hugo Black in Everson v Board of Education in 1947"

      Of course what is interesting is that you quote this decision to support your claims but fail to mention this decision (and this was the majority opinion supporting this decision) supported the idea of using public funds to provide transportation of kids to parochial schools (i.e. public funds 'supporting' church schools indirectly.)

    • If anyone is so bored that they wish to read this opinion here's a link.

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/
      330/1.html


      It's interesting to note that there was a substantial dissent to the majority decision.

      Also, the court concluded that public funds could be used to pay for bus transport to parochial schools.

      The critical quote by Justice Black would be:
      "That Amendment requires the state to be a neutral in its relations with groups of religious believers and non-believers; it does not require the state to be their adversary. State power is no more to be used so as to handicap religions, than it is to favor them."

    • joey_likes_oil_gas,



      >> Thanks for the quote. As you read it, where does it prohibit the teaching of creation? Is it establishing a religion? No. What the constitution says is that the government cannot establish a religion...cannot make a national religion. What I and others are saying is that why can't a bible study group meet after school for bible study? Is that establishing a religion? No. <<

      What others and yourself argue for is against one of the very things that has helped make the country great! The U.S. and all of it's states are "Secular"!!

      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=secular

      At the present time This Is The Law Of The Land and here again is the Supreme Court ruling that makes it The Law Of The Land !!


      >> SEPARATION CLAUSE

      "The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor a federal government can set up a church. Neither can they pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can it force nor influence a person to go to or remain away form churches against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbelief's, for church attendance, or non attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion." Majority Supreme Court opinion written by Hugo Black in Everson v Board of Education in 1947. <<


      As to your right to profess your religion, in what are in my view are that of a pagan cult, you have that right in this country!! But to your point of groups expressing their religious views on gov't property, that should remain against the law as I and others pay taxes to build and maintain those buildings and your beliefs go directly against mine! I should not under the Law be force to subsidizes your groups pagan views by use of a gov't building I'm helping pay for!! In my view your groups are the same as Bin Ladens followers and I'm Damn sure I do not want any of you teaching to my kids, family and friends!!

      In My Opinion!! :)




      >> "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men... But you when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Jesus of Nazareth--Matthew 6:5-6. <<

    • Thanks for the quote. As you read it, where does it prohibit the teaching of creation? Is it establishing a religion? No. What the constitution says is that the government cannot establish a religion...cannot make a national religion. What I and others are saying is that why can't a bible study group meet after school for bible study? Is that establishing a religion? No.

      Any way, the times they are a changing...the US is changing ever so slowly back to the basics of being good forthright moral people. The fact that these morals have roots in Judeo Christian bibles, well, that's okay. We can agree to disagree and that's just fine. I'm comfortable with my position and I hope you are comfortable with yours. The fire will be hot and consuming!!

      I'd rather argue about COP and whether or not it is going to continue to grow and strenghten. I hope it grows and prospers as it gives me a job. I won't be investing in the stock as I've got my income tied up in it. I'm a bigger fan of other companies, some oil some not.

    • joey_likes_oil_gas,

      weasel, you must be an agent of satan! As you are a disgrace to God, the U.S. and yourself!

      In my opinion!! :)


      AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

      ________________________________________________________________________

      [[Page 25]]
      ________________________________________________________________________


      ARTICLES IN ADDITION TO, AND AMENDMENT OF, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE
      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PROPOSED BY CONGRESS, AND RATIFIED BY THE
      SEVERAL STATES, PURSUANT TO THE FIFTH ARTICLE OF THE ORIGINAL
      CONSTITUTION \1\

      __________

      Amendment [I.] \2\

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
      religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
      freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people

      [[Page 26]]
      peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
      grievances. <<


      http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/conamt.html

    • Thanks for quoting the constitution, as requested. Oh, I forgot. YOU DIDN'T QUOTE THE CONSTITUTION. You quoted a whole lot of other stuff but you conveniently didn't quote the constitution. Wonder why? Maybe cuz you can't!!

      This thread has long been over and we don't care to debate it here anymore. Move on until you find that quote out of the constitution.

    • joey_likes_oil_gas,

      >> Please quote the exact wording from the constitution that says we must keep church and state separate? It aint there bud! <<

      Your type is nothing more then anti-God, anti-American, preaching garbage! Hit the books or hit the road! :)


      >>

      >> "Loyalty and responsibility toward the people and the fatherland are most deeply anchored in the Christian faith." Adolph Hitler <<


      >> "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men... But you when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Jesus of Nazareth--Matthew 6:5-6. <<



      >> SEPARATION CLAUSE

      "The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor a federal government can set up a church. Neither can they pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can it force nor influence a person to go to or remain away form churches against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbelief's, for church attendance, or non attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion." Majority Supreme Court opinion written by Hugo Black in Everson v Board of Education in 1947. <<


      >> "Strongly guarded... is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States... The number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church and state." James Madison <<


      >> "These are the fruits: pride, indolence, ignorance, and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance, arrogance and servility in the laity, and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." James Madison on Christianity <<


      >> "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." John Adams <<


      >> "As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." John Adams <<


      >> "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." Thomas Jefferson <<


      >> "To talk of immaterial existence's is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise." Thomas Jefferson. <<

      >> "The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statement of Christian dogma." Abraham Lincoln <<

      >> "The gov't of the US is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." George Washington <<

      >> That basic argument that Christianity must be true because it's been around for 2000 years would make Buddhism, Judaism, and Hinduism even more true. <<


      >> RACK JITE
      Fundamentalism should be treated just like any other mental illness, counseling and drugs <<


      http://www.rackjite.com/15bible.ht

    • >>Logical arguments presented by a conservative are never rebutted with logic.
      -Nothing like letting your emotions take over to foster gross generalizations; doesn't sound very logical to me.

      >>Rather, the liberal resorts to emotions in this case a thesaurus.
      -Exactly what emotion is thesaurus?

      I find it decidedly ironic that the emotion-based arguements on this MB lately have come from the liberal bashers. Their proof has been "faith" which by definition has nothing to do with logic or proof.

    • You are obviously ignorant of most of the world (outside of USA and Europe). The freedom to practice one's religious is prevalent in many corners of the world.
      Budhism, Islam, and Hinduism have lived together for centuries.
      Isn't the practice of burning down churches, synagogues, and bombing temples a characteristic of the USA and certain European countries?

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