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ARM Holdings plc Message Board

  • khitchdee khitchdee Mar 23, 2013 12:00 AM Flag

    ARM based tablets: The Haswell myth

    There's been a misinformation campaign rolled out that suggests that Intel's next generation PC class chip, Haswell will have such low power operation that it will be suitable for operation in tablets while still providing all day power.

    The Surface Pro was the first example of PC class chip doing duty in a tablet. It was thick, heavy and had half the battery life. At 7.5W typical power dissipation Haswell is going to be a few times more power hungry than several ARM based options around 2W. Therefore, while it may be possible to provide a large enough battery for all day battery life in a Haswell based system, it will not really be size or weight competitive with ARM based solutions. It would be as if the Ultrabooks got a little lighter and thinner but nowhere near the ballpark of tablets. As a point of reference, the next iPad is rumored to be both thinner and lighter than the current one which means Apple sees these factors as what would be most usable for the iPad form factor. They're not going after heavier and thicker with added performance.

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    • seriouslynot@att.net seriouslynot Jun 5, 2013 9:40 AM Flag

      Intel puts out products they build to it's customer cab test out if what hey say is true or not

      So, sorry, but it's all true, ARM is done

    • It is great to see so many negative opinions around ARMH and bullish on INTC, all base on speculation rather than truth. ARMH's risk is not from INTC but US stock crash, I mean overall market crash. However, with its sound fundamentals, it should bounce stronger than others in every major bounces.

      ARMH wins on business model. Under ARMH ecosystem, device makers get 1. Low cost CPU 2. Multiple suppliers of CPU. Now, INTC wants to fight this trend. I saw most INTC bulls focus on INTC's new product and technology. At the same time, never mentioned ARMH's new products (IP). They also tend to dismiss as hocks every time a breakthrough announced on wafer manufacturing from foundries like TSM.

      ARMH's 64 bits A53 and A57, especially A57 poses strong threats even in INTC's high end server market.

    • According to numbers published by CNET and sourced from Intel, on a 50WHr battery, the Haswell system gets about 8.3 Hrs under typical usage (running MobileMark 2012). If we adjust for the fact that the iPad4 runs a 42.5WHr battery, that means an iPad powered by a Haswell chip would give roughly 6.5 Hrs of battery life under typical usage.

    • I've seen some of the Haswell specs. Haswells are supposed to be low power. The Haswell laptop processors use 15w instead of 17w like the 3rd generation Core i series processors. I doubt you'll even get 10% more battery life with one of these. Even so, manufacturers will probably use smaller batteries to reduce weight. A dual core ARM processor uses less than 1 watt. I doubt any of the new Haswell laptops will have longer battery life than my Samsung Google Chromebook at 6.5 hours.

    • Haswell based tablets cant be built fabless.

    • khitchdee • Apr 7, 2013 12:45 AM Flag

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      Children don't buy computers, adults do. Well informed adults who have heard of Bill Gates and the silicon revolution ushered in by Intel. Apple is a relative new kid on the block and without Jobs will wilt to be a one trick pony. Wintel on the other hand is growing in leaps and bounds with the unqualified market success of W8 and touch enabled hybrid ultrabooks based on the game changing Haswell. At 10W, the UXP version will literally blow the socks off tablet customers with its unparalleled performance.

    • khitchdee • Mar 15, 2013 2:13 AM Flag

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      +The Surface Pro sales numbers have spoken. It looks like Microsoft has a veritable hit on their hands. With the intro of Haswell, some of the criticism around this PC will get addressed. Also, this leads the way for core series chips to be put to use in tablets which is probably a win for core series sales volumes. If I was Qualcomm or NVidia, I would be very scared about competition for tablet chips in this form which neither has a chance of competing with at least on the performance front.

      Windows 8 it seems is set to take off as a touch OS albeit a little slowly contrary to earlier reports

    • The ARM vs x86 Wars Have Begun: In-Depth Power Analysis of Atom, Krait & Cortex A15
      by Anand Lal Shimpi on January 4, 2013

      "I'd always heard about Haswell as the solution to the ARM problem, particularly in reference to the Cortex A15. The data here, particularly on the previous page, helped me understand exactly what that meant. Under a CPU or GPU heavy workload, the Exynos 5 Dual will draw around 4W. Peak TDP however is closer to 8W. If you remember back to IDF, Intel specifically called out 8W as a potential design target for Haswell. In reality, I expect that we'll see Haswell parts even lower power than that. While it may still be a stretch to bring Haswell down to 4W, it's very clear to me that Intel sees this as a possiblity in the near term. Perhaps not at 22nm, but definitely at 14nm. We already know Core can hit below 8W at 22nm, if it can get down to around 4W then that opens up a whole new class of form factors to a traditionally high-end architecture.

      Ultimately I feel like that's how all of this is going to play out. Intel's Core architectures will likely service the 4W and above space, while Atom will take care of everything else below it. The really crazy part is that it's not too absurd to think about being able to get a Core based SoC into a large smartphone as early as 14nm, and definitely by 10nm (~2017) should the need arise. We've often talked about smartphones being used as mainstream computing devices in the future, but this is how we're going to get there. By the time Intel moves to 10nm ultramobile SoCs, you'll be able to get somewhere around Sandy/Ivy Bridge class performance in a phone."

      anandtechDOTcom/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown/14

      • 3 Replies to justfine790
      • I think Haswell and Baytrail will be the beginning of the end to ARM architecture. Exynos 5 is a power hog. The Anand article is accurate. Versions of Haswell get down to #$%$ Don't compare Surface Pro Ivy bridge chip to Haswell. They are not even close in terms of efficiency. The i5-3317U chip burns 1#$%$ Haswell only 8 watts, so should in theory see more than double the battery life. Battery life is already 3-4 hours but with Haswell should be 6-8 hours and no ARM chip can even get close to it in performance.

      • This is the misinformation campaign I was referring to. Check some of the facts and you'll see the bias.

      • Intel North Cape Hybrid Hands-On: First Haswell Ultrabook Has Style
        January 9th, 2013 by Avram Piltch, LAPTOP Online Editorial Director

        The launch of Intel’s next-generation Haswell platform is several months away, but that hasn’t stopped the chip-maker from showing the kind of Ultrabook hybrid that will house its new CPU. Here at CES 2013, Intel took the wraps off of North Cape, a futuristic-looking reference design that makes today’s hybrids look outdated.

        We had a chance to go hands-on with North Cape at Intel’s CES booth and were impressed with its vibrant screen, responsive keyboard and luxurious soft-touch finish.The 13.3-inch, 3-pound North Cape hybrid features a 13.3-inch, 1080p screen with colors that really popped when we looked at Windows 8′s Start screen. Even better, the display supports 10-point touch and we were able to swipe an entire hand full of fingers in Windows Paint.

        The tablet by itself weighs 1.8 pounds and is a slim 10mm thick with a soft-touch white back that matches the back and sides of the keyboard dock. Combine that with a charcoal black deck on the 1.2-pound, 7mm-thick keyboard dock to go with the black sides on the tablet, and you have a system that reminded us of a spaceship from “2001: A Space Odyssey.”

        ipad weight=1.44 pound, thickness=9.4 mm

 
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