USA is not the land of the free - there aren't too many opportunities in the USA for people growing up in the ghetto - the fact is that Americans dont give a damn about their poor people. Americans are in love with their money and basically worship people with money. It doesn't matter whether or not you got the money illegally or by being completely immoral but if you are rich then you are royalty in the USA - what a pathetic system.
I am sick and tired of people telling the story of the very few who manage to dig themselves out of the poorhouse because in reality almost no one gets out and it is not a fair playing field. People with money and status still have an enormous advantage over poor people.
Basically every other western nation in the world looks after its disadvantaged better than in the USA which gives real hope for anybody to become succesful - by having access to a proper education, being fed properly and housed properly. This is real freedom not the false American dream.
<<Have you ever studied the voluntary socialist experiments of the 19th century? Such as the Oneida colony and the Shakers? They were all failures. . .>>
Bad rap. Oneida was enormously successful, but their open-sex society eventually alienated too much of the general populace and Oneida, fearing violence, disbanded. They were one really interesting group.
The Shakers faded not because of any economic failure but because of celibacy.
Kerzog -- thank you for expressing what strikes me as a very moderate, common-sense position. It may be off-topic, but it's worth reading for those who aren't mindlessly pro-establishment.
If your detractors want to see what a real "socialist" sounds like, they should look at the Goldspurt posts on the GFI Board.
<I think as a society we have the right to force these people to contribute more so that everyone lives decently.>
Then go contibute more yourself. You will make yourself feel good. More importantly, the *NLY* board will have far less OT posts and we can all "contribute" to a discussion on NLY.
Let me get one thing straight here - I am not against capitalism - I believe in a more balanced approach though - if a country becomes as rich as the USA or for that matter any major industrialized country in the world they have the resources to help the less fortunate. To not do so is immoral. Canada in my view has an excellent balance - it has a strong market economy yet still invests significantly in strong social programs.
Dont give me that crap about lack of military spending - where do you think all that military spending goes - it goes right back into the USA economy - there are many large American companies that are kept alive by this massive budget - isn't this some sort of grand experiment in government subsidization. Nobody put a gun to the US governments head to spend the ridiculous amounts of money on military that they do.
And we do not need to spend 300 billion dollars per year on the military - we do not need to be all over the world policing everyone. If we were smart we would pull back and focus on protecting our country and stop interfering in everyone elses business.
I sure as hell would pick the government over any private corporation to decide how our tax system is set up - in reality thought the government is essentially run by private enterprise at least in the USA so its probably a moot point.
And on the topic of Canada - Canada is in a strong economic position now because the government implemented tough spending cuts about 8 years ago and is now in a much stronger fiscal position than the USA - large surpluses every year - not bad for a country which is supposedly socialist.
Bush is an absolute disaster - 500 billion dollar deficit - from the conservative republicans - these guys should be hung up and dry. A totally silly war which will not make the world safer but actually more dangerous. And now Bush is whining about getting help from the UN and Europe after he treated them like crap last year..this guy is a laughing stock..how can so many Americans still respect this moron. Has he done one thing correct - one thing - he is worse than I could have even imagined.
You have the George W.Bush syndrome - everything is black or white to you. Any socialism is evil in your view which is ridiculous.
Progressive tax system punishes virtue - are you trying to tell me that the upper income are being punished - give me a break - these people have more money than they know what to do with. I think as a society we have the right to force these people to contribute more so that everyone lives decently. Come on - the rich people in more socialist countries like Canada or elsewhere still are living like kings..even though they pay more taxes than their counterparts in the USA.
You dont seem to understand my point - I said that the USA is far more tilted towards free capitalism - it obviously has some social programs but my point, from the beginning, is that the social programs in the USA pale in comparism to many other industrialized countries - the USA does not take care of its poorest people and it has more than enough resources to do so. Why do you want more and more wealth ending up in the hands of the already filthy rich - it makes zero sense to me.
Hong Kong is great for the rich - it is awful if you are poor - poor people live in horrible conditions there - I know - one of my best friends grew up in Hong Kong. He was one of the priviliged people but there are many poor people - often from China who are totally exploited by rich people/companies - this source of cheap labour is great for companies.
k. sezs<You pick some group from 200 years ago..why not look at a country like Canada now or Sweden or Denmark or Norway..I dont see these countries even close to collapsing.> K...c'mon, again you refuse to acknowledge the disastorous socialist experiments of the 20th century because you are subjectively fixed on an intellectual ideal that fails in practice. These countries you mention have low populations with ample resources sold by means
of a market system. Its the vestiges of captitalism that keep these economies afloat. And they have all benefited from low to nonexistent military expenditure....because of us. Canada would be Siberia West of the USS(ocialist)R today if King Kong wasn't on their southern border. K. continues<I am not advocating total socialism just a bit more justice here..why are you so opposed to that?> Who administers and determines what the right amount of justice is?...You, some bureaucrat, or some dictator? Those that think they possess this wisdom are dangerous people indeed.