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Linn Energy, LLC (LINE) Message Board

  • sandonthebeach47 sandonthebeach47 Feb 3, 2013 12:06 AM Flag

    ot/ Is Hydrogen a fuel?

    Since there was an incorrect claim that Hydrogen is not a fuel....ask yourself why would there be a network of Hydrogen FUELING stations being built if it was not a fuel?

    What is burned in the space shuttle as fuel?.....Hydrogen.

    Some people seem to be confusing the burning of natural gas which DOES NOT produce Hydrogen, with the steam reforming of natural gas to yield Hydrogen...... but it is obvious that all the articles and wikipedia cut and paste jobs just reveals the levle of a lack of an understanding.

    This article is very recent and describes a Hydrogen FUELING project in London.

    "News Release UK’s First Integrated Hydrogen Transport System to be Built in London and South East


    LHNE Project Will Create Network of Hydrogen Fuelling Stations and Deliver New Hydrogen Vehicles

    January 30, 2013 London, UK

    Today, a consortium of companies with expertise in hydrogen transport infrastructure announced they will begin work on the three year LHNE (London Hydrogen Network Expansion) project, a government-backed initiative co-funded by the Technology Strategy Board to create the UK’s first hydrogen powered transport system across London and the South East.

    The consortium, led by Air Products, will deliver a publicly accessible, state-of-the-art fast-fill 700 bar renewable hydrogen fuelling station network. LHNE will also deploy new hydrogen vehicles in London; including a number of Hyundai hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and Revolve hydrogen powered vans.

    Creating this network is particularly important because the major car manufacturers have confirmed that the hydrogen vehicles available for purchase in the UK from 2014/15 require 700 bar fuelling systems. The LHNE project will upgrade the existing fuelling station located near Heathrow Airport to 700 bar and deliver a brand new fuelling station with this specification in London. In addition, the project will increase accessibility to the dual pressure fuelling station at Millbrook Proving Ground in Bedfordshire, and the Transport for London station in Stratford. These developments will create the first network of 700 bar fuelling stations in the UK, ready to meet an increasing demand for hydrogen fuel. The functionality of this network will then be proved by a fleet of hydrogen vans which will be operated by Commercial Group as part of their delivery network.

    Diana Raine, Air Products, European Business Manager Hydrogen Energy said: “The LHNE project will bring together all the components necessary to make hydrogen transport possible across London and the South East as we prepare for the arrival in the UK of commercially available hydrogen vehicles. We hope that this project will act as an exciting demonstration model to be replicated across the UK and Europe in years to come.”

    “Air Products is delighted to be leading this project which represents a significant milestone in the development of the UK’s hydrogen fuelling infrastructure for hydrogen transport.”

    The LHNE consortium comprises of Air Products, Cenex, Commercial Group, Element Energy, Heathrow Airport Ltd and Revolve Technologies Ltd and the project is co-funded by a grant from the UK’s innovation agency, the Technology Strategy Board. It is one of five research and development projects selected by the Technology Strategy Board in 2012 to help accelerate the adoption of energy systems using hydrogen and fuel cell technologies, bringing them into everyday use. The Mayor of London and the Greater London Authority will play a supporting role in the project. "

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    • Do you ever go out? Every message you post is a cut and past with a question for everyone. Join some social clubs it may do you good. Or better yest go to Sands beach in Sausalito with Norris for the Super Bowl Sunday beach party.

    • Can you point me to where in that article it says how they produce the hydrogen?
      Oh no, it's not mentioned. I guess you didn't realize the fact that it is created from natural gas with a net loss of energy. Thus the hydrogen is no more than a battery created from the actual fuel sources (fossil fuels).
      Yes, you can buy batteries at the store too. Nobody in their right mind would claim batteries are fuel sources. Like hydrogen, they store energy created from the real fuel sources. They are energy carriers. Hydrogen, electricity, batteries, etc. All energy carriers, none of them fuel sources.

      • 1 Reply to lizahuang54321
      • No one is talking about batteries except you but that may actually help.

        This part seems to be some kind of revelation to you but not to anyone else:
        "a net loss of energy"

        So what.....we all know about that....not new news.

        And,

        "Like hydrogen, they store energy created from the real fuel sources. They are energy carriers. Hydrogen, electricity, batteries, etc. All energy carriers, none of them fuel sources."

        That is wrong. ...the natural gas is also an energy carrier but you are seeing it as if it is some original source ant therefore excluded which is incorrect.

        I said it several time already and you seem that by posting more cut and pastes that it might be correct.

        The fuel....whether it is natural gas, or hydrogen or anything that will produce energy when the chemical bonds break and it combines in this case with oxygen to become a different compound the energy is contained or stored in the chemical bonds that later break and release energy..

        ...so if you want to think of it as somewhat equal to a battery but with heat energy released instead of electrical energy from a battery that is an analogy that can be made....for every fuel....natural gas, hydrogen, coal, wood, oil...etc.

        Both fuels (CH4 or H2) are energy carriers....that is why you use it as a fuel.
        The energy is carried in the bonds that break.

    • more references: and I suggest you lean to comprehend English. My statement was that hydrogen is not a fuel SOURCE, and there are dozens of references which support that. Here are a few from different papers:

      "First, hydrogen is not a fuel source. While it can be manufactured, it is not naturally occurring
      in any significant quantity on Earth, hence you must exploit a naturally occurring fuel source to produced it."

      "Hydrogen is one of many potential replacements for gasoline as fuel for ground vehicles. It is not a power source in itself, but an energy carrier that is produced rather than found naturally. It tends to be made from methane or other fossil fuels."

      "It's important to realize that hydrogen is not a fuel source; it's an energy carrier. Hydrogen does not exist freely in the universe; it's always bound to something else. So it takes an investment of energy to free hydrogen from its existing arrangement and make it available as a stored fuel."

      • 1 Reply to lizahuang54321
      • And while 95% of hydrogen is produced from natural gas, it is possible to produce it from water, HOWEVER:

        "Hydrogen is one of two natural elements that combine to make water. Hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy carrier because it takes a great deal of energy to extract it from water."

        In other words to generate it from water, you need a large energy input (usually from fossil fuels). The inefficiency of this process (much more energy input than you get from burning the hydrogen) is why it is used so little. Again, the energy input you provide to get the hydrogen from water is the fuel SOURCE. Hard for something to be a source when you need to put more energy into it than you get from burning it.

    • "ask yourself why would there be a network of Hydrogen FUELING stations being built if it was not a fuel?"

      The important word which you failed to recognize was source (as in fuel source).
      Yes, there are also electricity charging stations too. Are you dumb enough to say that electricity is a fuel source? Both electricity and hydrogen are produced from fossil fuels. 95% of hydrogen is generated from natural gas (per wikipedia).
      The fossil fuels are the fuel source.

      • 1 Reply to lizahuang54321
      • As expected.....you are just insisting and repeating with the usual insults....so lets start here:

        "Yes, there are also electricity charging stations too. Are you dumb enough to say that electricity is a fuel source? Both electricity and hydrogen are produced from fossil fuels. 95% of hydrogen is generated from natural gas (per wikipedia).
        The fossil fuels are the fuel source."

        You are the one who keeps equating Hydrogen to electricity....not me.....and you are so wrong about doing it that it is funny.

        ........... so why would you compare a compound (hydrogen gas- a flamable gas) to a form of energy just illustrates that you are the one who needs to attend a HS or Jr HS levle chemistry course....since forms of energy is different from matter and they will help you understand why.

        You DO NOT need fossil fuels to produce hydrogen.....yet you are on another rampage trying to explain how much energy is lost upon each conversion step and the efficiencies etc.....not important here and not relevant.

        What if I decided NOT TO USE any natural gas to make my hydrogen...like the older ways of making it, and maybe use my waterfall or wind mill to get the power for my hydrolisis aparatus to make all the hydrogen you may want, and...... all for free?

        You can use natural gas steam reforming to make hydrogen but you do not need to.

    • still can't get a simple point when it is bludgeoned into your brain, huh? Read these quotes to understand that hydrogen is not a fuel SOURCE. It doesn't exist by itself on earth, so it is made from fossil fuels, primarily natural gas. The gas is the fuel, converting it into hydrogen doesn't make hydrogen the fuel source any more than electricity is the fuel source when that electricity is created by burning coal or NG. I guess you don't understand the meaning of the word SOURCE which was the important word.

      "Chemical companies today create hydrogen by cracking methane, a process that results in a tremendous amount of greenhouse gases."

      "the vast majority of hydrogen manufactured today is not made from the hydrolysis of water, because of the energy inputs needed. Instead, it's made from natural gas, because it's a ready and easily exploited feedstock for hydrogen production that can be transported more easily in liquid form. And that means that the hydrogen production does, in fact, produce carbon dioxide emissions, effectively nullifying the environmental benefits of fuel cells."

      • 1 Reply to lizahuang54321
      • maybe you prefer wikipedia:

        "Fossil fuels are the dominant source of industrial hydrogen.[2] Hydrogen can be generated from natural gas with approximately 80% efficiency, or from other hydrocarbons to a varying degree of efficiency. Specifically, bulk hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of methane or natural gas.[3]"

        Double dummy. Natural gas is the fuel source. Hydrogen is just the product of converting the fossil fuel into another form. And that conversion is done at a cost (reference the 80% efficiency point). That means you use more energy to create the hydrogen than you get out of it when it is burned. Thus there is a net energy loss. Second law of thermodynamics coming into play.

 
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