deepvalue, can you help me understand your logic or emotion? Please explain how WTM can present Directors like Steinberg or Berkowitz as independent. Use history and relationships, not the WTM statement of 'according to NYSE' definitions. Don't forget that these 2 fellows run Olympus Re who gets their business from WTM, that WTM runs Olympus Re investments. Hundreds of $millions in that relationship. Don't forget that WTM execs invest in Olympus Re and that these Directors determine the salaries of those same WTM execs. Etc. ETc. Make your case for these Directors to be classified 'independent' and then I can better understand your big picture painting. In that way, I can understand if you have a grasp of the facts and how relationships determine the outcome of special entity accounting and regulation.