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General Motors Company Message Board

  • itswhatsintheboxthatcounts itswhatsintheboxthatcounts Dec 29, 2011 8:20 AM Flag

    OK Haters, Let's say your wish for GM to fail

    comes true, now what ? 252,000 direct GM jobs lost, 60,000 in the US alone. Then comes the mom and pop shops closures. Tire shops, window tint, aftermarket, tool suppliers, cleaning services, weak banks, restaurants, food services, catering and protection companies,towing and transportation outfits, tag agencies,-you get my drift. What about warranty and part production for the millions of cars and trucks out there ? When its all said and done what do we have ? Maybe a million or more unemployed ? Do you actually believe that is good for America ? All this just because you hate the VOLT ? All this because you didn't sell the old GM when you had a chance ? All this because your only income is minimum wage or social security and you are miserable ? Amazing !

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    • What's with all of this doom & gloom if GM fails again...closed tint places, closed tire shops, etc. ARE YOU NUTS? Maybe you should step outside of your basement and go "discover" all of the other car brands and dealers on the market...they are not losers like those lazy overpaid greedy union slobs that put together shoddy products.

    • <<I obviously hold them to a much higher standard than you do and I'm also the 'show me' type of person. I suggest you start holding GM to a higher standard first and foremost.>>>

      Is this Why Cobra spends his time posting here instead of Dinning out with Warren Buffet. After all he has some Illegals working for him. But he holds GM to a higher standard.

    • Thanks tridacna, and best wishes for you too. I don't come here too much anymore for the very reason that you mentioned. Too much uneducated mudslinging on both sides of the issues.

      The only reason I return at all is to read and learn from a handful of regulars. I'm not opposed to hear another view if the thoughts are supportable. Posters like Kimes, Web, Supor, verum, and even MAllen (when he's in a reflective mood) and Rathhial (when he isn't trying to impress people with his vocabulary).I have quite a number of trolls on IGNORE. Makes it better on so many levels.

    • cobrawolverine@sbcglobal.net cobrawolverine Dec 29, 2011 4:23 PM Flag

      'Because that was the OLD GM, which exists only in the history books now.'

      We wish it were that simple. That's exactly the type of thinking that got them in trouble.

      A lot of the factors that were in place then still exist, therefore your comfort level should still be high alert.

      GM has not changed that much since then.


      'not where the NEW GM is and is going. '

      I'm not comfortable where the new GM is going, not comfortable with management.

      I obviously hold them to a much higher standard than you do and I'm also the 'show me' type of person. I suggest you start holding GM to a higher standard first and foremost.
      Second of all, just as so called 'bashers' bash GM, you supporters should stop putting them on a pedestal and crowing GM as this years success story. Works both ways on this board.

    • 1. BMW is exceptionally profitable--more so than even Daimler-Benz, and certainly blows everyone else away in terms of profitability metrics. Again, your comparison is apples-oranges.

      2. The NEW GM has already achieved reduced US break-even point to level (~10MM/annum) where it can be CONSISTENTLY profitable through all economic cycles. e.g., the fact that it was profitable in 2010, near bottom of US recession, is testament.

      And, cost cutting is STILL ongoing in the US (e.g., multiyear program to reduce global platforms/engine configurations by more than half) and overseas (e.g., report just yesterday about ~25% RIF in European engineering operations).

      3. "If GM were on par with the other companies, why were losing billions even before the recession?"

      Because that was the OLD GM, which exists only in the history books now.

      Everything I'm saying is well publicized and in the public domain, no secret. Your understanding of the NEW GM (which is still evolving to greater competitiveness) is outdated.

      Most bashers on this board dwell on where the OLD GM has been, not where the NEW GM is and is going. Much easier and entertaining to throw mud at the wall than to do careful/thoughtful research.

    • They would go through an organized bankruptcy and come up leaner and meaner because they have to no more bailouts, no Obama Cars like the volt, either sink or swim, this would be a huge blow to the unions.

      • 1 Reply to rhomolka10
      • Exactly, They will first have the BK judge eliminate or chop the cancerous pension obligation by 50-75%. Then elect new board to over see GM while in BK. Then, restructure the company from top down to make it a workable meaner and leaner company that Americans can acutally be proud of. Make no bones about. GM is communism to ALL Americans outside of Detroit. It is not a true American brand in which Americans do not support and have not for the past 10 years.

        GM is a chinese brand. Thats all.

    • Closure or legal re-organization of a bad business must happen. Period. If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything.

      Putting GM on taxpayer lifesupport like the banks will just lead to every large business sucking at the govt teat. That will destroy the U.S. govt, while concentrating wealth even further and even less meritoriously. Why are you advocating that outcome, pumper? Oh yeah, since that's best for your portfolio of this GM pigstock at the moment. You're all about "me me me me".

    • i wish this pos to fail miserably!!!

    • cobrawolverine@sbcglobal.net cobrawolverine Dec 29, 2011 11:41 AM Flag

      You are a bonified idiot.

      Nobody here wants them to fail, they want to go BK, so they can rid of the UAW, but keep it's workers.

      We want them to make better products, we want to hold them to a higher standard, we want them to be #1.

      We want it all.

      You will never understand this.

      • 1 Reply to cobrawolverine
      • <<Nobody here wants them to fail, they want to go BK, so they can rid of the UAW, but keep it's workers.>>
        Facts instead of Jealous hate
        Detroit 3 Salaried Labor Costs to Overtake UAW Hourly Costs, Researcher Says
        Automotive News
        November 29, 2011
        by David Barkholz and Christina Rogers

        For the first time in modern history, overall salaried labor costs next year
        at the Detroit 3 are expected to exceed those of all UAW-represented factory
        workers, says Sean McAlinden, chief economist for the Center for Automotive
        Research.

        The center estimates that the Detroit 3's 66,000 salaried U.S. employees
        next year, earning on average at least $122,500 in cash compensation, will
        bring in slightly more total income than the carmakers' estimated 115,000
        hourly workers earning about $69,000 each, McAlinden says.

        Until 2009, hourly employment vastly exceeded salaried employment at the
        Detroit 3, said McAlinden, speaking on the sidelines of a CAR conference
        today on automotive labor in suburban Detroit. But plant closings and hourly
        attrition now has salaried employment accounting for about 37 percent of
        total U.S. employment at the Detroit 3, he said.

        McAlinden said a recent pledge by General Motors CEO Dan Akerson to cut
        vehicle platforms by half and consolidate advertising with fewer agencies
        recognized that salaried labor costs are mounting.
        http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/detroit-3-salaried-labor-costs-overtake-uaw-hourly-costs-researcher-says-107233/

    • Scare tactics? If GM fails again, they will most likely be forced into a "real" Chapter 11 filing, not an Obama contrived filing, and not a Chapter 7 liquidation filing. Plants and jobs will be reconfigured. They won't vanish. Suppliers and local businesses may have to make adjustments but they most likely will be able to stay in business. The most significant occurrence will be the elimination or drastic alteration of the labor contract with the UAW as well as adjustments in salaried workers' pay and benefits. All the doom and gloom you point to will not happen, but adjustments will have to be made. The GM plants and equipment are mostly state-of-the-art. Somebody will use them to make vehicles. I personally don't think GM will go broke again. Before that happens, they will sell a big portion of the company to the Chinese. GM would get a pile of cash and avoid an embarrassing second failure, and the Chinese will get access to GM technology and US distribution channels for use in bolstering their own auto industry.

      • 1 Reply to niteshft45
      • <<If GM fails again, they will most likely be forced into a "real" Chapter 11 filing, not an Obama contrived filing, and not a Chapter 7 liquidation filing.>>

        As you probably know, a successful Chapter 11 restructuring requires a LOT of "debtor in possession" financing, $50 billion last time. Where would the required DIP financing come from? With the global banking industry looking at a European bankrupcy, or at least huge losses on existing loans, as well as the inevitable U.S. government finance crisis, where would the money come from? IMHO, the next filing would definitely be Chapter 7 liquidation.

        This is not entirely unlike the situation in 2008. Without the government bailout, there was no DIP financing available for the restructuring costs.

        <<Before that happens, they will sell a big portion of the company to the Chinese.>>

        I don't disagree there, if the Chinese were so inclined which is not a given. All of their efforts so far have been with the thought of building a strong infrastructure in China and creating the value stream there. I do suspect some day in the future, they will begin their quest for global domination. Besides, they are the only ones sitting on a pile of capital right now. Their plan seems to be to begin with auto suppliers, i.e., Nexteer, the old Delphi brake business, etc.

        To tell the truth, I would have thought they would have been more active acquiring Chrysler if they thought the time were right.

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