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Petróleo Brasileiro S.A. - Petrobras Message Board

  • jcat_70 jcat_70 Jun 26, 2009 7:41 PM Flag

    CAP and Trade Bill Passed the House today...

    I am glad to own PBR as this oil company won't be as exposed to this bill. It will never pass the Senate - no way in hell.

    I avoided buying...


    Also, have you seen that PBR is the only one green today? That's a sign people are getting into PBR from the other oil companies.

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    • That's true that Water vapor is a greenhouse gas like CO2 however:

      1) Clouds create an albedo effect, reflecting solar enegy out of the atmosphere and
      2) Water cycle is much, much faster than the CO2 cycle (days instead of year).

      So your point is moot.

      We have to change our energy sources to (in order of preference): Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Biomass, Nuclear, Nat. Gas and ditch the others. Electrification of the transports should be a priority going forward.

    • I have read a lot echoing these comments. Other scientists believe the most important greenhouse gas by far is water vapor not CO2, and that means plain old clouds have a lot to do with climate. Also, there are other scientists who have studied sun spots and have shown said sun spots correlate to global climate changes much better than CO2.

      Probably the most arrogant statement from these E whacko scientists was echoed by Al Gore. "the debate in the scientific community is over." It's hardly over.

      And most of the CO2 generated in the U.S. does come from oil.

      "In 2007, burning oil contributed 2.6 billion tons of carbon (35%). Burning coal contributed 2.2 billion tons (30%). And burning natural gas contributed 1.2 billion tons (17%)."

      It would seem to me the focus should be on oil more than nat. gas and coal.

      This is a bit misleading but is factually correct, "Coal and natural gas are the two cheapest sources of power at 1¢ per kilowatt hour and 1.4¢ per kilowatt hour, respectively.

      Wind power is seven times more expensive than coal; solar is 35 times more expensive."

      The thing with wind is that once you pay for the turbines, there are no input costs; all you are left to pay for is maintenance.

      I think the Pickens plan could come into play here. Tax foreign oil/gasoline, create incentives to get consumers to switch to using nat. gas and electricity in vehicles, and use the proceeds from the gasoline tax to beef up the electrical grid. One big problem with wind is the wind is in middle America and the biggest electrical consumers are on the coasts.

      Instead what we are likely to have is a tax scam that screws over consumers while putting many consumer $$$ into the hands of Goldman Sachs and politicians.

    • Partly right. the Arctic ice cap is floating, the Antarctic, which is about 2 miles thick is on land.

    • Yep agree with some of what you say.

      But sorry, the carbon emisions are going up, not down. It's true that they might have been going down in the US recently, due to the economic situation, but worldwide they are going up, year after year, 25% more in 2008 than in 1990, which is the baseline level of the Kyoto treaty.

      The bottom line is that latest science tells us that we have to reduce greenhouses gases we put out and fast, and that the free market by itself will not be capable of having this done quickly enough, hence the need for`"incentives".

      Now I do not care what the incentive is, cap-ad-trade, carbon tax etc... I personally think that a progressive carbon tax is the best solution (i.e 1% the first year, 2% the second year etc...)

      We need a better model to price energy, especially energy produced by using fossil fuels, fairly. That means internalizing the enrvironmental cost, which is discounted right now.

      Will it raise energy prices? Yes, Will it cause a bit of inflation? you bet, but long-term we will be much better off.

      PS: Despite all this, I am long PBR. Oil use is not going away anytime soon, but we do have to decrease our dependence on it.


    • The government is doing it for the same old reasons: money and power.

      The cap and trade is basically an exchange between those who produce plants (which remove CO2) and those who burn fossil fuels (which put CO2 in the atmosphere). So if you want to pollute, all you have to do is buy carbon credits and can have at it.

      I hope you see how such a system could be abused. A regulator could give you less/more favorable reports on CO2 production/emission on the basis of political favoritism. And of course, there is Goldman Sachs buried knee deep in this #$%$ wanting to make money off every trade between carbon producers and consumers.

      The whole reason this cap and trade scheme was cooked up was to give the government more power. Instead of just taxing carbon producers, cap and trade gives a payoff to the tree planting Enviro whackos and the ultimate welfare queens, the farmers.

      And ironically, cap and trade does not even work to lower CO2 emissions, "The major cap-and-trade bill now working its way through Congress is not without precedent. The European Union has had a cap-and- trade regime in place for years. It just hasn't worked so far.

      Begun in 2005, the EU's Emissions Trading Scheme has raised energy prices with "uncertain" effects on greenhouse gas emissions, according to numerous studies.

      Even green groups have been critical. The Natural Resources Defense Council, for example, has called ETS "an example of what not to do."

      The truth is that demand for electricity generation in the U.S. like virtually everything is going down. So the concept that we are spilling more and more carbon in the air year after year is not true.

      Furthermore, wind is cost effective versus newer nat. gas and coal plants. Solar is getting better but is not there cost wise yet. IMO electricity production from carbon sources has nowhere to go but down with or without government intervention.

      I personally think the American people would respond favorably to a gasoline tax especially after 9-11. Every day, the U.S. is shipping off nearly a billion dollars to foreign oil producers, many of whom are hardly our friends.

      If oil were taxed more severely, in the short run consumers might feel the pinch but in the long run, they would get the money back as their dollars buy more.

      Unfortunately, nothing seems to get done in Washington unless someone gets bribed. So you have this I'll support cap and trade if you back me on health care etc.

      It makes no sense to punish utilities producing electricity via domestic coal and natural gas when you can lower carbon emissions by going after foreign oil.

    • Maybe because about it don't ya think. At least to minimize the worst effect

      Always funny to see GW deniers claiming that scientists, of all people, have an interest in spreading propaganda.

      For a much more plausible explanation do as somebody once said "follow the money".

      Who has a vested interest of denying global warming and it's effect.

      Hint: It starts with fossil and ends with industry.

      It's actually very simple at the core: Dump enough greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that are not re-absorbed quickly enough, and you end up wit a "better" greenhouse. Greenhouse effect and gases causing it are actually the reason why the earth is warm enough so that life exists on it. The problem is that by dumping carbon that has been trapped for eons, we are actually helping to speed up a natural process that would otherwise have taken milloins of years to happen, instead of about 150 years or so.

      See even my 5 year-old kid get it

    • jcat_70, I agree with you. Buying more.

    • Hi Doc,I am reading this debate about "global warming" in several boards.Yes you are right; they (the gov)are playing us.What is increasing the ozone hole is a weakness of the magnetic field; because the magnetico poles are reversing themselves. Yes, this happening long time ago(north pole become south pole) and is happening again now. No this is not the end of the world: this is just "global warming" and there is nothing we can do about it. Why they are nothing telling this to the people? I don't know. Do you?

    • Dude, this is a local effect. You have to look at the big picture. Of course I too can take any example out of context to prove my point.

      Obtuse people like you are te reason the Western world, and especially the US will soon go the Roman Empire way.

      The chinese are coming, and the are quietly grabbing all the commodities they will need.

      They are also heavily subsidizing their green industries so that they could build a sustainable infrastucture in time. Tey get it.

      Despite all his flaws you could consider yourself lucky to have a man and a team with some forward-looking vision in power at the white house

      For once.

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