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Petróleo Brasileiro S.A. - Petrobra Message Board

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  • aco_brasil0192 aco_brasil0192 Dec 4, 2009 12:31 PM Flag

    Musk - Serious Question

    Thanks Musk. Much appreciated. I'm really just thinking for the future. My wife and child are both Brazilian cits and my brother-in-law is a lawyer in Brazil.

    So, if I understand correctly, creating the shell enabled you to avoid getting hit with taxes when moving the currency from the US to Brazil?

    "Remember... the documentation supporting property ownership is difficult to obtain, and authenticate."

    This is probably my number one concern with doing any type of property transfer in Brazil. This crap applies with cars as well. I know that my in-laws frequently buy and sell houses with inproper documentation and usually take a bath on the transactions - my father-in-law establishes a lot of charity creches in impoverished neighborhoods. How did you assure that the documentation was in proper order - through the lawyer?

    Finally, just out of curiousity, what inspired you to move to Buzios - had you seen it previously while on vacation?


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    • Aco:

      so, if i understand correctly, creating the shell enabled you to avoid getting hit with taxes when moving the currency from the us to brazil? no... the corporation is the vehicle for your "investment". there may be other taxes on individuals, but the only tax related to funding your corporation is a fx transfer tax levied by the bdb when you bring money in.

      how did you assure that the documentation was in proper order - through the lawyer? documentation for the corporation was done by the lawyer. i requested the lawyer review (for a fee, of course) the existing documentation on the house when we bought it. She gave it the "green light"... We bought an older house, in an older neighborhood, owned by one wealthy family who had documentation of taxes paid, title dating from the formation of the "loteamento" subdivision, "certidoes de debito negativo" (documented no debts), etc. generally speaking, there is usually some level -- more or less -- of documentation, one just has to know what to look for and where the risks lie and then make some decisions...

      finally, just out of curiousity, what inspired you to move to buzios - had you seen it previously while on vacation? After selling the house in los angeles, my wife and i and our 2 cats travelled extensively... Europe (too expensive), usa (wanted a change), mexico (some awesome places, but the culture a bit church-oriented for our tastes). my wife had worked for club med in bahia and like the culture... I thought it was too far from home... We came and we travelled extensively -- 12 months in 2 years. we tried to buy near petropolis and terasopolis (wife wanted to buy a big property in the mountains -- 10,000sm minimum. Easy to find and, at the time, easy to afford.) but we could not manage to close a deal... buzios has great beaches, a lively center, the appearance of affluence, plenty of gringos to be-friend... So i convinced wife that we should try buzios. we rented for a year... Looked at every house on the market in our range. made offers. finally, one of the sellers cracked... The house listed for r$800k was bought for r$535k... We've done quite a bit of renovation. we think we might be able to get our money back, maybe make a bit of profit. but we are not at the beach and we don't have an ocean view or a pool... Things every gringo with an escapist fantasy wants...

      what we have is 26000sm of mature gardens (mango, papaya, banana, palms, etc., a large master suite, a huge modern kitchen/living/ dining area, a cool 25 seat restaurant, 2 comfortable guest suites, a sauna/jacuzzi/spa structure, an artists studio and a fully functioning astronomical observatory with a 14 inch telescope (largest in the region), totalling about 450sm of covered area.

      we've just completed another round of renovations and want to enjoy the place for a while before we sell it. i imagine we'll be gone by the time the olympics come to rio in 2016. We think our buyer is probably a brazilian family with some older members who need a flat lot and access to rooms on the first floor. or, a foreigner who wants an active retirement...

      see for more details

      • 1 Reply to musketeernumberone

        Interesting, I could have sworn the FX tax was a lot higher than 2%. I guess the fact that you deposited the cash in the US-based Brazilian bank instead of carrying it across helped you avoid getting slapped with a heavier load.

        So, the fact that I would be able to easily obtain permanent residency through my marriage would negate the necessity of creating the "investment" fiction and shell corp - correct? In other words, these were done solely to give you access to a Brazilian "green card"?

        FWIW, I think your choice to live in Buzios be getting a warped perspective of Brazil. When I visited Buzios 10-years ago, I had the impression that it was possibly the heaviest enclave community in the country - it was the only place that I had been that felt like it had more Europeans than Brazilians. Much like San Miguel de Allende in MX.

        I really have to wonder if you might have a different outlook had you decided to settle in Florianopolis, Petropolis, or even a good neighborhood in Brasilia? I personally would not want to live anywhere is Rio.

        If I eventually move abroad permanently, I would look for a medium size city that has fewer ex-pats, has a relaxed pace, is off the tourist beat, has relatively low crime, and is populated by a lot of middle-upper class locals - say Morelia or Queretaro in Mexico, Trujillo or Chiclayo in Peru. I would avoid places like Cuzco, the Yucatan, and the NE of Brazil like the plague. Of course, Brazil is probably a lot less problematic than either Mexico or Peru.

        I'm not trying to be a d-ick by drawing out our previous debate - I obviously hit a nerve with that thread. Just looking for answers and questioning my own assumptions.


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