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  • winsabokk winsabokk May 3, 2010 1:34 AM Flag

    ABC Roundtable discussion-Pathetic

    Wow, talk about a lack of industry knowledge sitting at this table trying to educate the public about some very important issues.

    Who are these people trying to kid?


    MSM not doing it's job and deserves most of the blame for lowering the standards of debate.

    Surely they can find higher caliber people to discuss these issues.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/05/02/george-will-smacks-down-bill-maher-week-brazil-totally-oil

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    • Simply amazing is all I can say.

    • Spouting off? You might want to read your own posts lol.

      And rather than listen and believe the Saudi King, I'd rather think for myself.

      I'll admit I'm speculating but with such little transparency WRT goings on in Saud Arabia, I believe that that in itself provides a clue that maybe what the Royal Family tells us might not be totally accurate WRT goings on in SA. Duh

      And facts are hard to come buy, nevertheless you yourself speculate as to some universal evil ideology among Muslims???? what you got to back that up?

      <<There has been virtually no poverty in Saudi Arabia.>>

      A striking manifestation of poverty is the large and growing number of street beggars. According to published data, the number of arrested Saudi street beggars, both male and female has been on the increase. Most alarming is the number of beggars who are children. A Saudi journalist complains about “convoys of human beings who arrive every day… who could be a source of danger to the citizen and the security of the land.” The author, Salwa abu Mideen, complains that beggars search the garbage cans, which cause “the spread of bad odors, flies and mosquitoes.”(24)

      http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2003/issue3/jv7n3a2.html

      The charts provide visual evidence of the pervasiveness of the Saudi royal oligarchy over all ruling positions of the Saudi kingdom. The charts provide a picture of the extent to which an oligarchy of a little over 100 princes, related by blood and accountable only to themselves, control the lives and well being of 22 million Saudis.

      http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2003/issue3/jv7n3a2.html

      <<What is the evidence that "inequity" drove any major acts of violence?>>

      Well the above quotes as to Saudi governance (and there's lots more at the link) point to a lot of inequity in terms of who gets to decide how things get done in that society but here's a bit more in terms of how the econmic pie gets shared:

      In 1999, the National Commercial Bank estimated that out of a population of 20 million, there were 120,000 millionaires controlling a combined fortune of over US$400 billion. Meanwhile, according to the Saudi American Bank, 20 percent of Saudi men between the ages of 20 and 29 had no paid work.

      More info about Poverty and wealth in Saudi Arabia http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Saudi-Arabia-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html#ixzz0onbeseR8

      And keep in mind, it's Western governments that made this regime possible and continue to prop it up give it legitimacy.


      Don't get me wrong, I honestly believe that there are radical muslim leaders outside of the Saudi Royal Family that will use religion to recruit people to do nasty things.


      More on that in the next post...

    • Don't get me wrong, I honestly believe that there are radical muslim leaders outside of the Saudi Royal Family that will use religion to recruit people to do nasty things.


      And I'm against allowing immigrants from ANY country or religious bacground (including anyone born here) from using their religion as a basis for gathering people together and having influence over them politically.

      This merging of politics with religion is something that we should have zero tolerance for.

      In addition, the trends in terms of our political development towards more of a nanny state where social programmes go to increasingly support and subsidize families with 6,7,8, or 9 kids is not sustainable.

      And it seems it's Muslims (and other immigrants as well) that tend to take full advantage of all this additional nanny state support and have these larger than average-sized families.

      So unless we get an handle on the the mixing of Church and State, it's conceivable that the higher birthrate among these groups 'could' have a much larger influence on our politics going forward if we allow the mixing of politics and religion to continue.

      My fear is that once we reach a tipping point, there will be no going back (from a nanny state) because these groups (organized through their churches) could 'potentially' vote for more govt support as well as other things as directed by their radical religious leaders.

      Please note, I'm not saying that all muslims are radicals but I do recognize the potential for coercion in this religion and that we need to be on guard against that.

      So until we move away from a nanny state and people are forced to live with the economic consequences of having a large family, our system is subject to being abused both economically and politically when all these children grow up.

      In short, our system is ripe for the picking and we just aren't ready to deal with these issues until we make some changes.

      So in the mean time, I would like to see zero tolerance for mixing politics at religious gatherings and protection for those that choose to blow the whistle if and when it happens.

      If caught mixing religion and politics down at the mosque, we should deport the leaders responsible in order to set a good example.

      Personally, I don't have much use for religion but I prefer to live and let live in terms of belief systems ....unless they cross the line and pose a risk to the rest of us.

      We should also be vigilant in protecting the women from these cultures.

      Seems to me they must hate some of the traditional garb they are forced to wear and that a little more freedom for them when they come here is in our interest as well.

      Just thinking....when given a voice, these women might be more likely to speak out WRT coercive practices as well.

      Wins

    • These articles discuss the 9/11 hijackers and their motives as outlined in the book Perfect Soldiers by Terry McDermott

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/28/AR2005042801315.html

      http://www.nrbookservice.com/products/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=c6652#continue

      http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/0060584696

      You find things like:

      "The upbringing of each of the principal 9/11 hijackers, parsing their home lives, relationships, and educations for clues to how middle-class kids turned into suicidal zealots."

      "As for Ziad Jarrah, the pilot of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, he was "the handsome middle child and only son of an industrious, middle-class family in Beirut," a "secular Muslim" family that "was easygoing -- the men drank whiskey and the women wore short skirts about town and bikinis at the beach." At university in Germany he met Aysel Sengün, "the daughter of conservative, working-class Turkish immigrants"; eventually they got married, but he disappeared for long periods, usually without explanation, leaving her frantic.

      His disappearances, like changes in the other men's lives, were traceable to his discovery of radical Islam and jihad"

      'For all of them, radical Islam and jihad soon became obsessions, eclipsing everything else. Studies were abandoned, families ignored, the outer world denied as they plunged themselves into their fanatical version of faith. As a German investigator put it: "They are not talking about daily life stuff, such as buying cars -- they buy cars, but they don't talk about it, they talk about religion most of the time . . . these people are just living for their religion, meaning for them that they just live now for their life after death, the paradise. They want to live obeying their God, so they can enter paradise. Everything else doesn't matter." Talking one week of Kosovo, the next of Chechnya or Afghanistan, the "men were agreed: they wanted to fight -- they just didn't know which war."'

      "Atta, came from "an ambitious, not overtly religious middle-class household in Egypt" and had led "a sheltered life" until he arrived in Hamburg, Germany, in 1992 to do graduate study in architecture."

      'Among that handful were the 15 hijackers who joined the pilots aboard the four airplanes. All but one were from Saudi Arabia, most "were from families headed by tradesmen and civil servants, well-off, but not wealthy," mostly "unexceptionable men," none of whom "stood out for their religious or political activism."'

      You will not find a single thing in the reviews suggesting that economic issues played a role. Their backgrounds clearly suggest it did not.

      Don't make up fact-free arguments based on supposition. Some others here do it quite a bit. I'm not going to name names...

    • this is an alarming trend. The guys busted in Pakistan who supported the times sq, guy? Were upper middle class types. Extremism is growing more mainstream. That isn't good and sooner or later there will be hell to pay for it.

    • IDK about that? I do know that on occasion? One must rub something out with ruthless determination. Or die trying?

    • <<You will not find a single thing in the reviews suggesting that economic issues played a role.>>

      Ilap, you read things into my posts I never said. You seem to be under the impression that I sated economic issues were the sole driving force and I never said that even though I do think it is somewhat related.

      For the record, here's what I did write: "I never said ALL radicalism was driven by inequity, just a large contibuting factor down through the years."

      And in case it was not clear, the other material that I posted was alluding to the fact that the people in the ME have historically had little chance for self-dtermination.

      When we draw their borders and continue to impose a puppet govt on them that has no legitimacy and interfere with govt's that might have legitimacy(eg Shah of Iran)don't you think that might have long term repercussions?

      Put yourself in their shoes.


      <<"As for Ziad Jarrah, the pilot of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, he was "the handsome middle child and only son of an industrious, middle-class family in Beirut," a "secular Muslim" family that "was easygoing -- the men drank whiskey and the women wore short skirts about town and bikinis at the beach." >>

      When I read this, I can clearly see it's not always about economics but I don't leap to the conclusion that it's about some religious belief either.

      the drinking of alcohol and this type of behaviour for people from this background clearly points to something else that is the motivation.

      Self detemination (and economic issues too) are all part of it.

      In short, we have interfered and supported puppet govt's and prevented the people in this part of the world to determine their own destiny.

      <<Don't make up fact-free arguments based on supposition>>

      I do my best, I just try to make sense out of the mixed messages that we get from this part of the world.

      Wins

    • Ilap, you really think I have a liberal belief system?

      That's funny!
      Wins

 
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