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Tesla Motors, Inc. Message Board

  • flyingfirstclass flyingfirstclass Feb 28, 2013 6:56 AM Flag

    The madness of subsidising inefficient electric cars

    Because the brainwashed pro fanatics are resistent to any help they would urgently need, a voice from Europe. Don't assume buyers in Europe are as stupd as some of your are and don't realize that even the ultimate claim, efficiency and grennness is a simply scam. And don't come forward with "we use solar energy or wind unlike in the UK etc. It's the same bull....:
    Letters, April 10: The only reason to buy an electric car is to avoid fuel duty
    SIR – Gordon Brown is mistaken to claim that electric cars are environmentally friendly (report, April 8).
    Fossil fuels contribute to over 75 per cent of the energy generated by power stations in Britain. Coal produces nearly 300 tons of carbon per gigawatt hour, oil 277 and gas 125.
    About 35 to 45 per cent of the resulting energy is lost in the generation of electricity and its transmission down power lines to the socket used to charge an electric car's battery. When this is added to the loss of efficiency that occurs in the driving mechanism of a car, there is a total waste of energy of about 73 to 76 per cent. The efficiency, therefore, is only 24 to 27 per cent.
    A modern diesel engine is almost twice as efficient as this. A light diesel car is about 45 per cent efficient.
    The only advantage, then, of an electric vehicle is that you avoid having to pay the duty on fuels obtained from a garage pump. To further subsidise this inefficient mode of transport would be madness.
    Professor Stanley Fieldman
    source Telegraph

    Sentiment: Strong Sell

    SortNewest  |  Oldest  |  Most Replied Expand all replies
    • Flying, you are just too smart and brilliant compared to those of us who don't share your views on electric cars in general and Tesla in particular. I don't understand how someone of your obviously superior intellect would offer an argument about the inefficiency of electric at the socket vs gas or diesel at the tank. In your world, gasoline and diesel come out of the ground and go right into the tank. That's good since the extremists won't allow new refineries to be built. But back to you. If you could do some math while up there on your throne to quantitatively prove to the rest of us how inefficient Tesla's in particular are it would be most enlightening. Not that you would sink to such a low level and compare the Model S to a Passat TDI (ok, your quote from the professor pretty much did) but how about an apples to apples comparison-say a car that actually carries as many passengers comfortably, has as much cargo space and performs in the neighborhood of the Model S. Hint: start by using the energy required for each vehicle to go x miles. If you really want to have fun use the net dollar cost of the gas vs electricity. And can you calculate the relative efficiency of an ICE vs Model S while stopped at a light or on the freeway, and in stop and go traffic?
      One more calculation for dessert: the cost of the presence maintained by the U.S. in the Middle East solely for protecting oil supply. The fuel to power the Model S is nearly 100% domestic for those of us in the U.S., it's only 60% for ICE vehicles. That's good for the U.S., not so good for some of our suppliers who are also not just our enemies but the world's enemies. You're ok with that, right? Maybe you're not... That EV's, particularly the Model S, also benefit air quality and co2 emissions (more math homework for you: use the current U.S. electricity power mix vs. an ICE) is just icing on the cake.
      The feeble, the weak-minded and the little people await your response oh supreme one!

      Sentiment: Strong Buy

    • Flying is working with some bad information. Long line power transmission is far less lossy than he supposes, and the efficiency of an AC induction motor (like on a Tesla) is over 95%. What IS inefficient is the mobile internal combustion engine on a "normal" car. That one is lucky to achieve 30% efficiency.

      Tesla to $70 this year.

      Sentiment: Buy

    • ((( The only reason to buy an electric car is to avoid fuel duty )))

      Whe/if electric cars make sense the government will tax them.

      Example: Solar panels. When China started selling cheap panels in the USA Obama imposed a special tax on them. Note: The tax was not imposed on every solar panels. The expensive panel that made no sense are not taxed but the less expensive panels are.

      Good ideas don't need a subsidy.

    • Don't let politics cloud your judgement. Sounds like you hate Tesla because you hate left wingers. This is clearly a great car, look at all the awards it's won. An electric care with more than 100 miles of range is a great innovation. And the latest battery technology will make electric cars a sure bet for the future. Look it up... be a part of the future.

      • 1 Reply to georgesmarsh
      • I don't hate Tesla but know that their claims happen to be a scam. I don't hate leftwingers but know many of them have not the slightest clue about economics and physics but promote "clean" "non-pollutive" etc etc. For them, something that comes out of a plug is pollution free. Read my initial statment and counter the facts (problem is then you have to deny the law of physics) or start to investigate Elon's claims.Even if you use solar or wind as the primary energy source to feed Tesla's cars you have no chance of success. And yet another hint: you need backup facilities because you have a storage problem and this kills any economic and/or pullution advantage as all the „save the planet people“ believe Tesla stands for. Tesla's cars are not even more efficient than the most efficient diesels of today, without even considering energy/waste for producing batteries. You won't get those diesels in the US yet, but in Europe you do. They have already better fuel efficiency than hybrids (anybody: don't ask me for proof, you know how to use google). Further, conventional engines are extremely fast catching up with diesels and probably not another 10 years from now will run 100 miles on about half a gallon. If you don't understand that Tesla's battery concept will never have a chance to even come close to that simply because it's technically impossible then you truly have a real problem: You don't understand that shorts can be very sure that Tesla will fail. They will sleep very well whatever the stock is doing because in the end it is going to zero. The question is not if, the question is only when and a stupid government can indeed prolong agony by wasting taxpayer money on a dumb concept. One more to those stupid would be environmentalist: The only working way to solve our environmental problem is to save energy and to use and foster technolgical advances. Talk to real engineers, not to cluesless would be visionaries who promise the moon. Tesla is dead on arrival.

        Sentiment: Strong Sell

    • 1) electricity produced on the grid comes from other sources, according to the US gov:

      Coal 42%
      Natural Gas 25%
      Nuclear 19%
      Hydropower 8%
      Other Renewable 5%
      Biomass 1.38%
      Geothermal 0.41%
      Solar 0.04%
      Wind 2.92%
      Petroleum 1%
      Other Gases

    • The verbiage here is very incorrect. He is unaware of the well to wheel energy used to deliver gas to your car in the first place. Numerous kWh are used per-gallon just to make gas. It costs 1/4 to 1/3 per mile to drive an EV over a good-mpg car. Maintenance drops in an EV versus ICE. More electricity is made with Natural gas than Coal in the US. An EV on coal is better for the environment than a comparable car on gasoline. And, lastly - oil will eventually run out. Then what? His viewpoint is looking forward 1-2 months. EVs are looking forward 100+ years.

      Sentiment: Buy

      • 2 Replies to jmcvicker
      • Jmc
        getting gas into your gas tank is under a 20% loss of energy. 80% efficiency. Very little energy used in the process is electricity and that which is used is nearly all made onsite from parts of the oil which will not be sold for other purposes.
        Often refineries are net exporters of electricity. In other cases refineries work together and set up an electrical plant so they can share the costs. The fuel this electrical plant uses is from the oil they are refining. (Waste products. Coke for instance.) The biggest need the refineries have is for heat which they get as waste from the Co-Gen electrical plant. Electricity is essentially a byproduct of the process and sold on the market.

      • Also - flying, your quote from The Telegraph is from 2009 ! can't you do better than that?

        Sentiment: Buy

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