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Ballard Power Systems Inc. Message Board

  • redshoe77 redshoe77 Mar 22, 2014 10:21 PM Flag

    Get busy blueflame

    This is what Daimler said now tell us what you say. And don't send in that dummy PK.

    "The electric grid in this country was designed in 1919, and is by far not capable of providing enough electricity. Even if only 10 percent of vehicles were battery electric , it wouldn’t work. I don’t say battery electric vehicles are a bad idea. I just want to be clear about what it’s capable of delivering to customers. We owe this to customers.
    He repeatedly pointed to Daimler’s 2 billion Euro investment in hydrogen fuel cell technology. “We believe it’s the only technology that’s able to completely eliminate the need for carbon fuels.”
    “Fuel cells are technologically ready for long distance, everyday applications and are ready to conquer the world,” said Herbert Kohler, Daimler’s chief environmental officer.

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    • There are some great posts under this topic! So much more information can be learned from these types of posts and doing your own research than reading the articles under the Yahoo quote. The hydrogen infrastructure will happen in some countries (e.g., Germany) much sooner than others (e.g., the U.S.) for reasons such as energy independence and the ability to move quicker. But the testing being done in South Africa this year on residential units and in various places on telecom backup will be the bigger short-term news. That success and its bus experience will enable bldp to continue the move into the auto area. It would be nice if it happened quickly - like an internet startup - but the bright side is that the patents will enable staying power. Anyway, glad to read thoughtful posts.

      Sentiment: Buy

    • Let me suggest some light reading. There is a very recent study out of the Rocky Mountain Institute and partners called "The Economics of Grid Defection" that states that given the ongoing drop in PV and distributed grid storage costs, over the next 25 or so years grid independent PV will be come an economically viable alternative to the grid.

      So PV is a disruptive technology and the grid, at least in the US and countries with sunny climates, is in the early stages of an existential struggle, one that will leave it fundamentally changed, little resembling the 20th century grid.

      • 1 Reply to nmcotwpv
      • I have not read that report, but I would welcome that concept,.

        Complete grid independence requires either a large change in lifestyle, or a very large array and/or storage mechanism. It would have to be designed (and maintained) to provide for the peak power demands of your home, the same issues that the grid faces.

        I would agree that a reduction of grid usage is coming, but at some point maintaining the grid and central power plants will increase the grid power costs, and monthly meter fees. How can it not, and still have a stable grid?

        And it would cost the consumer more, especially the people that don't have the resources to buy, lease, or rent a large array. What is the goal, reduced cost or save the planet?


    • "The electric grid in this country was designed in 1919"
      And I bet it hasn't been changed or upgraded since then, right Red?

      FYI, the first fuel cells were invented in 1838. Does that make them old and obsolete?


    • This is what the automakers have said. Now tell use what you say.
      BMW betting on hydrogen
      Earlier this month, The Chronicle ran an interesting interview with General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner, in which he said major car manufacturers need to develop a variety of alternative energy technologies in preparation for the day that world gets off the oil.
      The theory goes: Betting on just one -- electric cars or fuel cells -- would be too risky.
      That's not the party line over at BMW. The German car manufacturer told TED attendees in Monterey Thursday that they are betting the whole hog on hydrogen.
      "Water is the coal of the future," a big sign in the middle of the room read. It was a reference to the process of extracting the H from H2O, and then using it to power the same internal combustion engines we use today.
      Turns out BMW started its hydrogen program back in 1978, and as such, they have a ton of research on the topic. Lots of interesting factoids. For example, BMW believes:
      --The world will hit peak oil in 2025, marking the day the world reaches its peak petroleum production, declining thereafter until we run out.
      --Technology will allow us to mass-produce hydrogen, without burning fossil fuels to do so, in the next 10 to 15 years.
      --The cost of putting a hydrogen gas station on every 40 to 50 miles of U.S. roadwways would cost between $400 billion and $500 billion.
      --We will see the beginnings of hydrogen infrastructure, i.e., gas stations, by 2025.
      --We will switch over totally between the years 2040 and 2050.
      With those timeframes being pretty far out, it should be noted that BMW is developing hybrid models in the meantime. The first is expected out in 2009. But, in the long run, the Bavarians are betting their Euros on hydrogen
      Tom Baloga, BMW of North America's vice president of engineering in the United States, predicted that some balance between hydrogen and batteries will replace gasoline. "We think the answer is hydrogen," Baloga said.
      Honda President 10-23-07
      "We tried mass production three years ago of a battery vehicle, on which we made significant technological progress from a model 10 years ago," Fukui said.
      "Yet that level wasn't at all enough to realize a battery vehicle," he said. "That's why we're doing fuel cell."

      WASHINGTON, July 20 (UPI) -- U.S. officials and automotive industry leaders have agreed that hydrogen fuel is the long-term solution to reducing the country's oil dependence, but continue to debate whether the U.S. timeline for developing alternative fuels is aggressive enough.
      Achieving "technology readiness" will be more a preliminary than final success, said Byron McCormick, executive director of fuel cells activities for General Motors Corp, at the hearing. McCormick estimated that it would take about 20 years to sell enough cars to transition the entire U.S. fleet to hydrogen power.
      Hydrogen is the most versatile of all the alternative energies under research. Fossil fuels, biomass, nuclear energy and renewable energy such as solar power are all possible hydrogen sources. Substituting a hydrogen fuel cell for a car's internal combustion engine eliminates all the car's emissions, but water. This potential has pushed experts to sustain a focus on commercialization of hydrogen rather than on short-term solutions.
      "Hybrid vehicles won't get us there," McCormick said. "We look at the world and the pressures that will be there both environmentally and energy-wise, and we're going to need every pound of energy we can get. We've got to use it the most efficiently, and that inevitably means hydrogen fuel cells. What we want to do is get away from incrementalism."

      Ford’s Natkin 7-26-06

      ” At Ford we still believe that fuel cells have
      the potential as being the ultimate clean and efficient powertrain."

      Ford’s Zanardelli
      We are convinced: The way into the hydrogen future is irreversible!
      "Hydrogen represents the promise for a better future for you and me," said Vance Zanardelli, Ford's manager of strategic powertrain technologies. "Hydrogen is the future."

      Daimler Chrysler 7-16-06
      “For the long term, however, no drive concept offers greater potential on the road to sustainable mobility than fuel cells powered by pressurized hydrogen.”

      If we want to maintain our present level of
      mobility, the long-term transition to hydrogen as a source of energy
      is an absolute necessity. This transition requires time – and that
      only makes it more important to start now. Our progress in the
      development of hydrogen engines makes us confident that the road to
      the market is a short one. The BMW Group will certainly make every
      effort to help hydrogen make a breakthrough as a source of energy and
      the hydrogen engine as the propulsion concept of the future. We are
      convinced: The way into the hydrogen future is irreversible!

      Carlos Ghosn, Nissan chief executive, commented: "The only breakthrough technology is fuel cell because this is the one that guarantees you are out of oil dependency,"

      • 2 Replies to redshoe77
      • Like I said for many years, red,...fuel cells won't make any serious dent in the fossil fuel transportation for decades. You refused to believe me, but now you believe BMW, Daimler, etc though they say the same thing...
        Decades, red.

      • Living up the past, are we Red? You do realize this is 2014, you'd better update your cut and paste.

        Tom Baloga, BMW 12-23-07
        Honda President 10-23-07
        Nissan Carlos Ghosn October 20, 2005
        Daimler Chrysler 7-16-06

        Red, you do realize these guys are talking about hydrogen ICEs
        BMW "...hydrogen engine as the propulsion concept of the future"
        Ford’s Natkin & Zanardelli 7-26-06 "Hydrogen is the future."


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