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Hecla Mining Co. Message Board

  • pharmaheroch pharmaheroch Mar 23, 2012 8:49 AM Flag

    Please put high GTC sell orderin..READ WHY !!


    Put a high GTC sell order in like $40 this will prevent your shares from being shorted and your shares will be reduced from the Market means the current Float will go down further ,if many investors do this then shorts will have big problem to get the shares to cover =SHORT SQUEEZE .


    Q.: What can you do to prevent your shares holdings from being shorted?

    A: Now what can the average personal investor do to stop their own shares being shorted, as believe me your own broker, if approached, WILL sell your own shares that they hold on your behalf as a nominee account.

    There are two things you can do, the first is to certificate them but this is not obviously to everyone’s advantage but the alternative solution is simple. All you do is to phone your broker and put an order in saying that you wish to place your shares for sale at, for arguments sake, double today’s price. As they are 'on order' they cannot be lent out by your broker and in turn you are reducing the amount of 'free shares' out there that can be used for shorting purposes. And don't forget to move your limit order up when the price starts to recover, then, that way your shares can't be shorted - not much but helps :D.

    Although an individual personal investor will not normally have enough shares to halt a concerted shorting attack, if a large number of holders did this it would reduce the overall amount of shares that they could get their hands on.

    In my opinion well worth doing if not only for the knowledge that your own shares cannot and will not be used in a short attack against the very share that you own.


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    • strong buy

    • I have some experience with asking for certificates - I usually accumulate stock to a certain point in a brokerage account and then once I have a significant amount obtain certificates for it. (Some stocks you can not get certificates for, but you can get most of them transferred into your name in book form.) Having stock that you intend to hold long term directly in your name is wise IMO - just think of MF Global.

      Anyway, you just need to call your broker and ask. In my experience it is common for brokers to tell you they don't know how to do it the first you have to insist. If they say they can only transfer it in book form take that option. Once you get it transferred to the transfer agent in book form certs are easy.

      A couple months ago I asked for a cert for 1,200 shares in book form from TDAmeritrade. First time I contacted them the guy on the other end of the phone told me he did'nt know how - after staying on the line for a while he told me to fill out a form and fax it to them. Filled out the form and they replied a couple days later telling me that they could no longer issue certificates and that if I still wanted the stock I could fill out another form to request it in book entry format - filled that out and got a reply a couple days later saying my fax was illegible, resent the fax and they transferred it to the transfer agent. One call to the transfer agent and certificates showed up in the mail in about a week.

      You just need to be persistent.

    • Just now read your post 'ness. What you say makes sense, we are making some progress here HaHa! Just the same we are talking about a moving target here where effectivness is questionable. Personally I think making that daily call is a worth while exercise regardless. If SH were a little more active some of these CEO's might not enjoy such outsized compensation for one thing!

      "the crap system is designed to facilitate the short's" Of course it is because WS profit's on comm/transaction fee's. I have no problem with legit shorting-that being you call your broker in advance & they secure that stock is available to short. Naked shorting is still rampant IMHO & all the dog & pony show's on WS won't prevent it. Also worth noting there is little consistency among broker's where borrowing stock to short is concerned, Two might red flag "no shares borrow", the third will ask how many do you want! Some year's ago I was involved with a stock where the mm/specialist was in cahoot's with a large outside short seller lending shares out naked right off his book! To my knowledge this has ALWAY'S been a no-no violation! Just the same as collusion between a Co's mngmnt. & the specialist/mm is a No No in most cases, Yet it would not suprise me one bit if these practices still go on. I'm not insinuating HL's spec. engages in this BTW.

      Like I have said from the start WS has a thousand way's to skin the home gamer at this game with murky law & reg's. too complicated for the avg. player to understand. They occasionally get caught when they cross the line, pay a nominal fine & the beat go's on busines as usual. Not too worry too much-most of the short's got real aggressive during the 2008 financial crisis at the same time HL had it's own issues resulting in dilution. I think that dilution problem is behind us with HL's much improved cash position & future FCF. In fact a modest stock buy back seem's more likely as the next move. As confidence in the PM's grow's investor's will hold mining shares more tightly & the equalibrium will return. Down but far from out buddy!

    • Also, has any poster here with a "cash only" account EVER seen a credit notation <$$$$ for lending out their shares> magically appear on their broker statement???

      I bet not.

    • dwn, the question is , "Does a GTC order stop the lending of your shares".....the answer presented to you...."She gave me the impression that if I called every day with a GTC order the shares were secure.".....answers the question.

      That is exactly what TDA told me.

      GTC orders do NOTHING except sell your stock at a predetermined trip point............DOES NOT STOP THE LENDING OF YOUR SHARES.

      You have to call in EVERY morning before market open to request that shares not be lent out.

      The crap system is designed to facilitate the know, the guys that provide that ELUSIVE, irreplaceable, liquidity.

    • Thanks for all the advice, drawnfire. The shares in question are held in a TBTF bank's brokerage arm, and some in a almost-like-Etrade brokerage. Those are the shares I want to get out. I also have an account with one of the reputable legacy brokerages who used to buy or sell stock based on phone calls from my dad. They have online trading too, and that's where I hold the shares that I actively trade. The others (held at TBTF and etrade-like, which I want to get out of the system) are well into LTCG territory. I think what I'll do is stop at that legacy full service brokerage and ask whether they can get me certs. If so, then I can transfer the stock to them and close the other accounts with minimal effort. If (in the unlikely event that they also are resistant) then I suppose I'll just do what Hecla IR told me: transfer to the transfer agent, then get certs from them. I would certainly prefer the former route since I'll drop in their office to pick up the certs instead of watching the mailbox and hoping they don't arrive the day some punk happens to clean out my mailbox. Never happened before, but for something like this, a valid concern. Even if they're sent signature confirmation, said punk might end up with the "you have a package waiting" slip and if he tries to get it and the USPS worker isn't paying attention... You catch my drift, I'm sure.

    • So SDBT to your original question. About 6mo. ago I called my broker gal[office mngr.] about the GTC order & if it would prevent shares being borrowed. First off she had to call their legal dept., or something like it for the answere. When she called back I had the feeling she still was hesitant to commit even when I tried to pin her. She gave me the impression that if I called every day with a GTC order the shares were secure. I will say straight out I think someone was shining her on. I don't believe it & I will tell you why.

      The same folk's you need to go through[transfer agent] to get your registered cert. are the real gate keeper's so to speak of the stock, where ownership, official vote count's etc. take place. When your stock is in "street name", especially a margin acct., your local broker in most cases is a secondary player in the food chain of thing's. If your GTC order is placed with a branch office how do you know that's even cummunicated to a transfer agent? And even if it is what's to stop the transfer agent/primary dealer from lending the stock out anyway? Over the year's i've asked a couple of pretty savy broker's about the "mechanic's" involved here & got diff, interpretation's each time. The first lesson I learned when I moved to a discount broker 25yrs. ago-DO NOT depend on that under 30 kid on the phone with 6mo. experience to answere the complicated question's. Granted some are much better then other's but I could relate some scary experiences where they could not even compute a simple margin requirement.

      Bottom line here getting back to your reg. cert. request. You just need to get up front & in their face. Being polite,civil & business like often just encourages some people to try & blow smoke up your skirt. I can understand them not wanting to do it-but there is no reason they can't do it. They might have a charge to execute but even that might be negotiable. You might be better off just calling that HL transfer agent & asking them to start the process.

      frankly I think you are making a smart move since you do not intend to trade the stock. I read & listen to the WS crowd every day touting the cramer ALL CLEAR, the worst of the crisis is past line. Having watched the 2008-09 financial meltdown real close i'm far from convinced of that. When money market fund's dropped under a buck it was a time to worry! When the president, congress & the FRB chairman are in a panic, along with ALL major central bank president's-it's time to worry even more!

      So here we are almost 4yrs. later & how has the fundamental picture changed? We now have a euro zone financial "problem", which will probably become another crisis, 3 war's still festering[or is it 4?]--an unstable mid east & a I-ran/N.korea nuke problem. Not to mention 16tril in debt here at home, no budget in 3yrs, going on 4, & weak as water leadership fostering as much class warfare as possible to get re-elected, and a WS/admin/FRB that has dug such a deep manipulation hole I seriously doubt they will ever climb out of it!

      PS-It might be a good idea to order those DTCC activity report's from the clearing member firm's. They can point one in the direction of just WHO is borrowing the shares short. Cost? I guess HL is not too concerned about short's if my last call to IR is any indication. I have asked them previously if they had knowledge of just who the larger player's were & the phone just got real quiet. Not necesarily a bad thing just passing along my experience. GL SDBT

    • SDBT-"is it normal/legal that your broker would say no can do" No it is not normal in my experience-but as for legal, they pretty much write their own rules when it comes to services offered. The few times in the past I needed those services I was with a full service broker & paying pre-discount comm.rates-[read HIGH!] They handled all the paperwork no charge. Two of the transaction's were a bit more complicated than your's too. As an executor of estate I had the registered stock cert. in possesion[in another's name] & needed to get them in my acct. before I could sell them. Sooo the usual drill, copy of death certificate, copy of will, copy of general power of attorney, conservatorship paper's etc etc etc. I will give you some VERY valuable advice before I continue this post. A little O.T. in regard's to your stock question, but Since you also live in CA. I would assume it would apply to you.

      Sooner or later you could find yourself taking care of a seriously ill family member. Prior to that person becoming incapacitated you get a VERY COMPLETE GENERAL POWER OF ATTORNEY giving you the power to act in their behalf-IN ALL MATTER'S-notarized & recorded of course. This is not an option-it's necessary if you are the one that will be making most of the decision's for their care-[primary care giver]Without one you will quickly sink into the quagmire of CA. social services, that mean's spending lot's of un-necessary fiat on lawyer's & court appearances ,in addition to the stress of handling your sick or dying relative. The cost, even written by an attorney is minimal. My first one cost less than $100. At your age perhap's this is the last thing you are concerned about right now-but I was 32yrs old when I got that first phone call, & between then & 60yrs old I had 4 more similar situation's to deal with! BTW-Don't expect most attorney's to encourage or even mention a GPOA paper-they are like most broker's, the more hoop's to jump through the more fiat generated! I would also strongly advise against being a conservator if you can possibly avoid it. As an officer of the court the paper work & reporting requirement's are a REAL pain in the butt! You get some personal liability protection but IMHO it's hardly worth the time involved. [con't]

    • drawnfire: I'll get them, I just wonder if it's normal and/or legal that the broker would say no can do. I know I can (and will) get the shares, I just have to jump through a few hoops of calling the transfer agent, moving the shares, then requesting certificates. This is my core position that I will hold until someone takes away or breaks Ben's printer - in otherwords I'll hold them for a very, very long time. Put 'em in a safe deposit box and leave them there.

      nsxt: I have no problem with shares bought on margin being lent to shorts. A buy on margin is just gambling, so there's nothing wrong with someone taking the other side of that bet. But all my shares are MINE - paid cash, not margin. I do not want them lent, particularly when my broker doesn't give me the fee they get from lending. If they've been lent, then the broker will have to scramble to acquire shares to actually deliver the ones I'll be taking out of the system. I also do not want them to get vaporized in some MF global style "oopsie, just don't know what happened, so sowwy" by some @$$ clown with a get-out-of-jail-free card.

    • If I write covered calls against the stock, does that reduce shares available for shorting?

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