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Zalicus Inc. Message Board

  • scistats scistats Apr 2, 2013 3:50 PM Flag

    Where is the Z160 vs. NMED160 animal model pain data? Not the bioavailability data, the pain data.

    Maybe I missed this, but where is the data comparing Z160 with the previous formulation (NMED160) for pain for the animal models?

    I found the bioavailability data in Justin Renz's Bio CEO & Investor Conference presentation in February, but I cannot find the data that shows that increasing bioavailability improves the analgesic value in the lab animal models.

    I see in his presentation that Z160 does work in animals, but so did NMED160. This is why Merck paid millions.

    The critical missing data is the comparison of pain when using the two drug versions in the animal models. I know Corrigan must have this data, but where is it?

    The reason I am asking is: If Z160 and NMED160 both work identically well in the animal models and there is no added benefit of the "increased bioavailability", it means two things:

    1. The animal models are useless for determining the benefit of increased bioavailability in humans, because the animals respond equally at a very low level

    2. If NMED160 originally passed the animal model test (at some low minimal concentration), convincing Merck to pay millions, increasing bioavailability that is not correlated with increased analgesic value in these same animal models, tells us that bioavailability is not the only problem.

    This can be resolved by pointing out the data or requesting that Dr. Corrigan or Justin Renz share this data. We need to know that NMED160 analgesic value in the animal models is inferior to Z160 because of its dramatically "increased bioavailability". HOWEVER, if small concentrations of NMED160 are as effective as Z160 in the animal models, bioavailability may NOT be the problem. In this case, the problem might be difference in human targets and neural networking, i.e. Z160, regardless of concentration, may not be sufficient to shut down pain signaling in humans.

    If anyone knows where this data is, highlighting it would put a bright spotlight on this stock.

    Sentiment: Strong Buy

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    • Maybe Margaret Lee will provide data showing that increased bioavailability enhances analgesic value compared to NMED160 in the lab animal models, but Merck saw NO PROBLEM with NMED160 in the lab animals, suggesting that increased bioavailability does not make that much of a difference in rats?

      In other words, a little NMED160 works just as well as a LOT of Z160 in lab animals? If this is the case, THE PROBLEM IS NOT BIOAVAILABILITY BUT DIFFERENCES IN HUMANS vs. RATS. In this case, no amount of Z160, regardless of bioavailability will stop the pain, and the trials will fail.

      THIS CAN BE RESOLVED BY SHOWING US THE DATA!

      11:10 State-Dependent Calcium Channel Blockers for Pain
      Margaret S. Lee, Ph.D., Vice President, Research & Translational Medicine, Zalicus, Inc

      With prolonged excitation, such as during chronic pain signaling, the relative proportion of voltage gated calcium channel inactivation increases. Specifically targeting the inactivated state offers an opportunity for pharmacological selectivity that may broaden therapeutic window, minimize adverse effects and increase efficacy. We have discovered novel, first-in-class calcium channel blockers that demonstrate enhanced potency for the inactivated state. Z160 and Z944, selective, state-dependent, N- and T-type calcium channel blockers respectively, demonstrate potent effects in nonclinical pain models. Both are currently in clinical development for pain indication

      Sentiment: Strong Buy

    • Sci Fiction: You have not paid attention to the last 7 presentations or you would not have made those comments. The results have been posted many times, no compnay would post the data to support it, that is confidential info, and your insinuation that the data is false is out and out stupid If your going to try and be a big time basher you need to grow up and find a trick that works. Clown.
      Jim Long and calm

      Sentiment: Strong Buy

      • 1 Reply to pattonjim95
      • Jim, where is this data in the last presentation? I honestly cannot find it.
        You are saying the results have been posted many times and that no company would post the data?
        What?

        Just tell me which presentation, and I will peruse the slides.
        This is key. Maybe I have overlooked it, but I honestly do not remember seeing this particular data.
        Their focus has always been on bioavailability. We already have the Z160 pain data in lab animals. All we need is the comparison to the old formulation, NMED160, to Z160 at equal doses. I am sure Z160 must be superior.

        This would confirm that bioavailability is the key to success which we know they have resolved.

        We just need to see that Z160 at equal concentrations is more analgesic than NMED160. At equal concentrations, Z160 is more bioavailable and, therefore, should be more analgesic, right? But, I cannot find the slide comparing the two. This is no big secret, as I said, they already showed us the Z160 pain data alone and the bioavailability compared to NMED160. All we need to see are the equal dose pain results. If they are unwilling to show this, it could mean that there is no difference and increasing bioavailability is meaningless in the lab animals. This would be a problem.

        However, if they do show or tell us this (or have shown or told), this would be kind of nice to know.

        Sentiment: Strong Buy

    • Is your idea to ask the animals how much pain they're feeling? One meow or two?

      • 1 Reply to ranger43a
      • Ranger, exactly!
        With equivalent doses given to each cat, I want:
        One meow for Z160 and
        Two meows for NMED160
        Indicating that the increased bioavailability is the issue, and you are going to be a rich man. If the meows are the same in number, contact Merck to find out what happened to their money because bioavailability is not the problem.

        Sentiment: Strong Buy

 
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