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Hawaiian Holdings Inc. Message Board

  • evhaw evhaw Sep 29, 2007 4:28 PM Flag

    Week 1 Analysis request:

    I've read one view of the first week. That analysis suggests Judge Farris is very reluctant to stake out his ground in court and is rather unlikely to penalize Mesa. This despite the finding of activity bordering on illegal (at best) by Mesa.

    Cousin VIN_E, you have spoken about the high standard HA has to meet in order to prevail. What chances do you feel HA has of actually realizing any punitive damages?

    Other legal minds that reside here: what is your analysis of week 1?

    Thanks.

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    • Evhaw wrote, “What chances do you feel HA has of actually realizing any punitive damages?”

      Sorry for the delay Evhaw, there was a time I could check this site many times a day, but lately, that has become very difficult due to an important project that I am working on.

      As far as what my view is on week 1, I would have to say I fully agree with mauilover3’s view of this. I could not have said it any clearer than he has. His view is right on the money!

      On your question, “What chances do you feel HA has of actually realizing any “monetary” damages?” Well, that my friend, is the 173 MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION! What Hawaiian is trying to prove, is NOT as easy as many here think.

      Certainly, the Judge has ruled that Mesa did in fact keep confidential information and did not return or destroy it, as the confidentiality agreement required. Certainly, Mesa misused that confidential information when deciding whether to enter the Hawaii market. Certainly, the misuse of that information was a factor in Mesa's decision to enter the inter-island market. HOWEVER, it does not prove that the information Mesa had was not obtainable in the public domain, or that industry experts could not have compiled it. Now it is up to Hawaiian to prove to Judge Faris how it has cost Hawaiian 173 Million in damages! That day is finally here and Hawaiian must now hit one out of the park.

      As I said in an earlier reply to Calbears, the firm that Hawaiian is using, Simat, Helliesen & Eichner Inc., is a very well respected firm and should be a great help to Hawaiian’s case. The Vice President of SH&E, Samuel Engel, is no stranger to Judge Faris. He worked with him throughout Hawaiian's entire bankruptcy reorganization process and is now the person that has put this damage claim together for Hawaiian.


      To answer your question Evhaw, Hawaiian, at this point in the case, IMO, has a better that 50/50 chance of winning something, although they certainly have their work cut out for them. Am I saying they might end up getting 173 million? IMO, no, but I will say this, whatever the decision, it is going to be “extreme” either way.

      As far as an injunction barring go! from selling tickets for one year, I do not believe they will win that argument.

      Good Luck to All. Vin E

      • 1 Reply to cousin_vin_e
      • I am not sure why my last post did not post properly. Yahoo must be having some HTML issues. Here it is again.

        Evhaw wrote, "What chances do you feel HA has of actually realizing any punitive damages?"

        Sorry for the delay Evhaw, there was a time I could check this site many times a day, but lately, that has become very difficult due to an important project that I am working on.

        As far as what my view is on week 1, I would have to say I fully agree with mauilover3's view of this. I could not have said it any clearer than he has. His view is right on the money!

        On your question, "What chances do you feel HA has of actually realizing any "monetary" damages?" Well, that my friend, is the 173 MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION! What Hawaiian is trying to prove, is NOT as easy as many here think.

        Certainly, the Judge has ruled that Mesa did in fact keep confidential information and did not return or destroy it, as the confidentiality agreement required. Certainly, Mesa misused that confidential information when deciding whether to enter the Hawaii market. Certainly, the misuse of that information was a factor in Mesa's decision to enter the inter-island market. HOWEVER, it does not prove that the information Mesa had was not obtainable in the public domain, or that industry experts could not have compiled it. Now it is up to Hawaiian to prove to Judge Faris how it has cost Hawaiian 173 Million in damages! That day is finally here and Hawaiian must now hit one out of the park.

        As I said in an earlier reply to Calbears, the firm that Hawaiian is using, Simat, Helliesen & Eichner Inc., is a very well respected firm and should be a great help to Hawaiian's case. The Vice President of SH&E, Samuel Engel, is no stranger to Judge Faris. He worked with him throughout Hawaiian's entire bankruptcy reorganization process and is now the person that has put this damage claim together for Hawaiian.

        To answer your question Evhaw, Hawaiian, at this point in the case, IMO, has a better that 50/50 chance of winning something, although they certainly have their work cut out for them. Am I saying they might end up getting 173 million? IMO, no, but I will say this, whatever the decision, it is going to be "extreme" either way.

        As far as an injunction barring go! from selling tickets for one year, I do not believe they will win that argument.

        Good Luck to All. Vin E

    • Once again you show your lack of education on this issue. Mesa is losing millions of dollars by offering sub-$20 fares. This, because they would fill a very small number of seat on their aircraft without giving away tickets ($1, $9, $20, etc, fares). As their aircraft are smaller, less comfortable, with no frequent flier time ins or local name recognition.

      An inter-island ticket needs to cost a minimum of $50 to make any sense (and GO! has the highest CASM of the 3 carriers). gO! also has no code share/feed from the mainland. Their business makes no sense in a 3 jet carrier environment. Thus the whole issue of them trying to give Aloha "a final push" out of business with predatory pricing.

      HA's business model calls for greater long haul growth. The inter-island business is and has been shrinking for years. Long haul is where HA's profits are generated, it's just tough when inter-island is losing money, as it has for the past 1.5 years.

      No where in the country does Mesa fly at rates anywhere close to that of the gO! operation. Why? Because they can't make money. Are you aware what Mesa charges on the mainland?

      Mesa hasn't done anything new in Hawaii. JO has made claims of being able to "fly empty for years", etc. The problem is that Mesa's business isn't going as well on the mainland and the building losses in Hawaii are harder to hide (notice how they don't break out gO!'s numbers for shareholders?)

      In summary, this battle is about getting one of the 3 carriers to leave the market. That way, the other two will increase fares to the $50++ levels and decrease some capacity in order to operate a real business and turn a profit.

      Get it? gO! is losing a couple of million dollars a month in Hawaii. They need AQ to leave in order to charge profitable fares for them.

      All of this would be apparent to you if you did understand the airline business climate out here.

    • Bye bye Punani Dawn, you have made the ignore list with the Board Troll.

    • But doesn't that mean....in otherwords........HA can not compete when someone else in the marketplace whether it be Aloha or Mesa? It also means that MESA JO is absolutely correct, if Mesa is not in the Hawaiin market, the airline fares will shoot up making flying intercoastal UNAFFORDABLE for most of the public. It also means that other airlines will recognize the obvious that larger planes aren't profitable and a small size plane fleet can easily take over the market.

      You know there was a thing called deregulation whereby there are no more airline monopolies so every airline must compete with others. HA lacks the ability to survive IMHO.

    • william_thomson@sbcglobal.net william_thomson Sep 30, 2007 12:08 PM Flag

      oh, one more thing dusk----------look up the word (if you can find a dictionary)-misanthrope !! do not bother to reply. you are now on ignore !

    • william_thomson@sbcglobal.net william_thomson Sep 30, 2007 12:04 PM Flag

      goodbye dusk -------you are now on ignore,where you can join all the other ignorants !

    • Oh, Lord, please leave, I want my thread back.

      If there is analysis, please keep posting it (those in the know).

      If you want some facts, back when HA was able to charge reasonable fares inter-island, they were one of the only profitable airlines in the country (please try a little research).

      Turn around these fares and the airline, which is fast approaching $1 Billion in annual revenue, will be profitable on the balance sheet. Comprehend this and you'll enter the realm of reality. The question was never HA's survivability, it was and is AQ's.

      If, you're only here to bad talk HA without any factual content, just go away to the Mesa board (and enjoy losing money there).

      Some of what you post here sounds shockingly emotional.

    • Geez, you guys can't come up with any good reason to be in HA so you attack anyone that is not part of the sheep squad? It isn't my fault the company DOES NOT make money (with or without Mesa being in Ha) ----and therefore is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddd business model. Oh well, there are others who actually use their brains out there. You guys just keep going Baaa baaaa baaaa.

    • william_thomson@sbcglobal.net william_thomson Sep 30, 2007 2:10 AM Flag

      agreed---------see my previous posts !!

    • It seems that our new friend 'Dawn' has the same style, punctuation, grammar, and overall target as the late, unlamented 'Hangmaniceman'. I wonder, since 'Dawn' showed up just as 'Hangmaniceman' disappeared, if they are not one and the same. Just a thought.

      halawapilot

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