You're the kind of guy that would whine about taxes if you won 100 million from the lottery.
If it bugs you so much, then petition for a change in the SS tax law so employees pay the full SS tax.
Let me know how that works out for you.
Oh you evil business owner! My, the trickery!
Tough to compete with a limitless credit card. You see how I get blasted for mentioning that we might be better off without government distorting markets.
Jet et al,
Just as an interesting aside, as an employer, I have, in the past(not this last year, I think) had my office manager at the end of each January, when the W2's are handed out, give the employees a detailed enumeration of their "total" wage pkg.(Sorry for the run on sentence).
This details gross wages, employer's contribution to their SS tax, vacation pay, personal days( I pay employees on their birthday for any personal days not taken...great way to reduce personal days taken, resulting in increased productivity), Federal Holiday pay, Birthday pay, Bonus pay, 401K contributions, Health insurance, Life Insurance, Gas Vouchers, and probably a few others I have forgotten.
THEN, I have her divide the actual number of hours worked(Hourly staff), into this total amount. This gives a dollar/hour amount that always raises eyebrows.
I enjoy my staff. I did lose a 15 year veteran this past year mainly because she moved to a town 20 miles away and found a government health clinic that was walking distance to home. They did offer her the same wage pkg as she was getting from me, but offered her 6 weeks vacation pay to start. I had her at three.
I figure I will have to work an extra few weeks to pay the government the extra portion of taxes that they can pay her for the three extra weeks vacation, as the government does me another "favor"....
Don't misunderstand, I do appreciate our government, just in small doses...;-)
I also agree that politically it is a non starter. People think that taxes are high now. What if everyone knew how high they really are. This is why I think it is set up the way it is. Taxes are hidden behind the business.
IMO it is deceptive, intentionally, which gets us nowhere in an honest debate.
I agree with what you said and that we each thought differently of what the other person was saying. The debate went several directions. My only saving grace was that he had a business and understands how high taxes really are.
I didn't change any minds, which is fine, but I definitely do not feel our system is above board. I feel many people think the way he does when he said let the business pay the tax, as if the business is something other than the people that make up the business.
"These two are not what Republicans like to call "entitlements". Unlike Medicaid, food Stamps, free cell phones, etc, SocSec and Midicare are a return on investment. If you paid in to them your entire working life, why would you be req'd to take a "means test" to see if you are worth too much to get your money back? If you are a millionaire or billionaire or gazillionaire, all you have to do is not sign up for either of them."
SS and Medicare are not annuities. They are not represented as liabilities by our government. They are obligations. Obligations where the requirement to pay and how much to pay can change at any time.
They are transfers of wealth from those that prepared for retirement to those that did not. You would be incorrect thinking of them in terms of an annuity, but this is exactly why they cannot be discussed. Many people feel they are owed, as you do, and are unbending in discussing any solutions. Others just simply say there is no problem.
I don't want to get too heavily involved in this, but having invested 15 minutes in reading the exchange, let me just say that it's obvious you and Olee have been talking past each other.
Your point is that the employer's portion of the payroll tax is actually paid by the employee too, and shifting the whole obligation to the employee would not change anything in substance but would make it more clear (to the employee) how high his/her taxes are. Which is correct. (Though income tax rates would have to be adjusted, as the employer's contribution is not subject to income tax). (Also, which way this would play politically is questionable, as more employees would then realize they they pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than folks like Romney).
Olee seemed to think that you were complaining that employers pay too many taxes and, if they didn't have to pay half the payroll tax, they would hire more bodies. He is correct of course on what he says about what causes more hiring (more demand, not lower taxes) -- but again, I think that there has been a misunderstanding about what the other party's point is.
No doubt now I will be blamed by everyone, which is what traditionally happens when I try to mediate a dispute and say that everyone is right.
Relevance? We were debating whether an employee generates the production necessary to pay the matching tax or if it comes from a mythical business fantasy land. I implied that the system is deceptive because of this fact and comments made by you that a business pays them from something other than production of the employee.
I did not mention any reasons for businesses to hire, or expand.
I see no relevance of your personal feelings of paying SS/Medicare to the debate.
I see no relevance of your personal feelings of the benefit SS/Medicare provides to society.
I never said cut the tax. I said put it on the employees check and let him pay it so that he realizes what it costs. Same cost to the employer. Same production required of employee. Nothing changed except big WOW from employee when he realizes true % of production paid to taxes.
I fail to see the relevance of the tangents you brought into this simple debate.
However, since we can finally agree that no fantasy land paid the tax when you had a small business and that you paid it based on your production and nothing else, we can move on.
Now (new debate), if we cut the tax, what would you have done with it, as a small business? Would it be up to you? Would it be dictated by the market? (ie: your competition lowers hourly shop rate because the extra production is no longer necessary to pay the higher taxes)