Please be sure to never forget that between 1992 and Sep. 2000 Israel had only 1 clear intention:
PEACE WITH THE PALESTINIANS.
Former Israeli PM Ehud Barak has given Arafat an offer that I am sure even surprised him. It's the best offer they will ever get.
What we got in return was a declaration of WAR against us as a sign of "goodwill" on their behalf.
I've written about this in the past. Please read my previous posts on this board.
It's amazing to me how easily the US understands that Bin Laden and co. are out to DISTROY the US if they get a chance to do that, but yet cannot understand that ARAFAT's intention is the same regarding Israel. I wonder why that is.
instead of avoiding the issue again, provide some links to some real proof that I am wrong.
Is the treatment of women in most Arab nations a big media hoax?
Nice id you use by the way. It speaks volumes.
Now some proof that I am wrong?
Funny, or sad, as the case may be, Delta Force was broadcast on TV last night here in Amsterdam. Not a lot of insight in that particular film, unsurprisingly.
Although I have always been sympathetic to the plight of the state of Isreal, I am disappointed that increasingly the rhetoric from the Isreali government, as well as the US government, is of a strongly unilateral tenor. I think this is a mistake. As has been pointed out by many observers, I believe current hardline policies exasberate the tensions, and are effectively helping to create, along with Arab hardline sympathies, a new generation of palestinians willing to die for their cause. Let's face it, the Palestinians are f*cked no matter how you slice it, birthrates are plummeting, poverty is widespread and accelerating, and hope is in short supply. It doesn't surprise me that "sane Muslims and Arabs" aren't doing more to wipe out extremism. By isolating Arafat, no matter his true agenda, extremism remains the only hope for many of these people. Sure, it is wrong and hateful and sick, but it is understandable.
No doubt, no arguments that Isreal is surrounded by enemies, and will be for the foreseeable future, and must protect itself in any way possible. But it is a shame that more isn't being done to foster dialogue, that it is always dismissed as having already been tried, and that the focus continues to be on past conflict and disagreement, rather than looking ahead to more hopeful possibilities.
If the Palestinians are such sheep, why do they persist in teroristic bombing activities. Have you noticed, Israel attacks FOLLOW each terrorist activity. Let's face it. Your people are on a losing track and you will cause a lot of innocent people to suffer in your losing cause. The Israel people will never give up. Neither will the Americans! Chill out. Try to find someway to love and have a decent life. That said, let's use this forum for investing!
"I see little or no effort on behalf of sane Muslims or Arabs to do anything to wipe out their own extremists, nor do I see any Arab or Muslim nations helping out any other Arab or Muslim nations in times of dire need."
Perhaps if you could explain the above to me, I may be able to take a much less harsh view. In fact I would very much like to as I do not like feeling this way. This issue is constantly avoided or talked around by the Arab and Muslim world.
Show me that your mind is larger than mine.
"Suicide terrorism always seems to have a religious component. "
Those individuals die in a mistaken belief that is what their religion calls for. I happen to believe it is a corruption of their religion.
To the rest of the world, suicide bombings directed at innocent people is an act of terrorism. Regardless of their motivation, it is not a war of one or more religions against Islam.
I agree with the others who have posted here that our best hope that some leader, some Islamic religious leader, repudiates the extremists and their interpretations of portions of the Koran. They have to give up that nonsense about the eternal struggle against the infidels and "holy Muslim land" and all the extreme radical constructions deadly hostile to everyone who does not believe as they do. All other religions accommodate and live with other faiths and they have to do the same. I'm sure whoever it may be will have an outpouring of support from everyone besides the mullahs who profit from the current situation.
agreed, it's either reach, motivate and assist the moderates or things get messy and fast.
i find religion to be man's ultimate display of arrogance and the single biggest threat to our survival.
anyone who can come close to conceptualizing the size of the universe and simple statistical theory would realize that it is almost impossible for us to be the most important entity in it and the reason for it's existence.
religion is for those who lack curiosity, the ability to accept the unknown and who feel insecure if everyone does not think like them.
sure it has pockets of benefits and does a lot of good in the world, but not consistently and not more good than harm. provides comfort to millions who would not find it elsewhere, but then nature is all about the survival of the fittest, and we lost that edge a long time ago.
now we carry and support the weak while allowing them to jeopardize our very existence.
my rant for the week.
I agree with you, Illanelli
And if Islam won't squash their own extremists, I suppose that the U.S. will make an effort. I think it is becoming increasingly difficult to convince Muslims everywhere that such efforts aren't an attack on Islam itself.
Should the U.S. move ahead to war on Iraq, it will surely exasperate the problem, IMO.
I think more effort and resources should be spent on reaching moderate Islam, and trying to work together on a solution to extremism.
One clear difference is that the Palestinian P.R. actually seems to care what the world thinks. It would have been nice if the Taliban and al queda had been more willing to communicate with the world.
From this pair of American eyes (seeing things from europe, at present), it is not at all clear that the PLO=al queda, or Hamas, or any other terrorist organization. There seems to be circumstantial evidence that sympathies flow freely between the many organizations mentioned, and indeed, throughout the Muslim world, but the very fact that Isreali gov's have been, in theory, trying to negotiate with Arafat for these many years lead me to believe that his goals are not as simple, or evil, as you portray them.
I have to ask, DSY- Do you think all out war against the palestinians might lead to a much broader war in the middle east against Isreal with other presently peaceful muslim nations? And if you believe that this is a very real possibility, do you think that this is preferable to a negotiated settlement?
I read in the Herald Tribune yesterday that a recent poll in S Arabia tabulates that over 90 per cent of Saudi men sympathize with al queda and bin laden's goals. I hope these numbers are incorrect.
p.s. I appreciate reading the dialogue here, and hope it continues. Watching the news, the dreaded CNN, sheds almost no light on the subject. Just this afternoon there was a debate between a PLO negotiator and an Isreali cabinet member and neither let the other speak, and it went on for about five minutes, and then off to other news.
>>> "the very fact that Isreali gov's have been, in theory, trying to negotiate with Arafat for these many years lead me to believe that his goals are not as simple, or evil, as you portray them. "
Are you aware of the fact that, in the 80's, many members of what you now reffer to as "Al-Queda" were trained and armed by the very same foces that are now chasing them when they were referred to as members of the "Mujahideen" and fought the Russians from within Afghanistan?
Are you aware of the fact that there are some who even go so far as to boldly claim that at certain points of time Bin Laden was only slightly short of the definition of being an official "CIA agent"....(I think you had a 60 minutes episode on that a few months ago).
Why am I bringing this up?
To make a point that governments make mistakes in "reading the map" and later on in time have to pay for their own mistakes, with blood.
A similar situation has happened with us and Arafat. During Rabin's (may he rest in peace) government Rabin and Peres trusted Arafat. And here's a scoup for you....: SO DID I. Well, to be true to the facts, I didn't ever TRUST the guy who is a known snake and never believed that the same guy that was an official terrorist since his 20's and till he became a "leader of a wannabe nation" (thanks to Israel...oh boy...!) would suddenly become our best friend. But nevertheless I was willing to give him a true chance.
That's the point.
WE ALL WERE WILLING TO GIVE THEM A 100% GENUINE AND SINCERE CHANCE. At the time we had here in Israel a local "flower power" fashion that wouldn't ashame the one you had in the States in the 60's. No
But now we see their true colors and intentions (and their "intentions" are a reason for a whole new post by me...maybe later :))
>>> " Do you think all out war against the palestinians might lead to a much broader war in the middle east against Isreal with other presently peaceful muslim nations? "
Not if we do it in a smart way.
>>> "And if you believe that this is a very real possibility, do you think that this is preferable to a negotiated settlement?"
Do you think that the current and future plans of the US regarding your "war on terror" may result in a broader conflict in the ME or the world and if so - do you think that fighting terror with all possible might is prefferable upon negotiations with Bin Laden and those who will follow him?
>>> "I read in the Herald Tribune yesterday that a recent poll in S Arabia tabulates that over 90 per cent of Saudi men sympathize with al queda and bin laden's goals. I hope these numbers are incorrect. "
Probably. It's probably actually closer to 100%. :)