in Isreal/Palestine? Still praying for war?
I read a report the other day that intimated that the U.S. would like to see a buffer-zone-less border. I'm all for MAGS products, but can anyone here tell me what the status of Sharon's fence is?
It's looking more and more like the U.S. will soon need to intervene (and hopefully the rest of the international community), and I wonder if any serious fencing is possible when true, defined borders are so far away. If they are placed along 'temporary' lines and borders, will this idea fly with anybody but Isreal? IMO opinion, Isreal is quickly on the path to giving up their right to make such border decisions.
Gotta say it, Mags will continue to be held back while Isreal continues to say "F*ck you" to the world. Same is true for the U.S. market as long as the U.S. says the same.
It doesn't surprise me that they haven't seemed to have been able to sign much business in the U.S. 'Security' systems from Isreal....the word 'security' has become very tainted, the market for such products politicized. Just guessing, here, but I have to, because MAGS isn't talking about it.
I know it is a horrible situation to live in Isreal right now, and will be for who knows how long. But the people who are advocating all out war are dreaming, and it could never be won without the support of the rest of the world, which is ebbing by the day.
Isreal should stop their incursions, allow a huge multi-national force in to police terrorism, and give back to 1967. The new Palestine should begin as a massively funded international police state. International forces should be deployed throughout the region for as long as it takes (generations?). MAGS would immediately soar, religious people around the world would breath a huge sigh of relief, hope finally back in the air.
Good lord. Negotiate where you can, sure. If it breeds more terrorism, than stop negotiating (as you have done) and start some diplomacy. If you have read anything in my posts that suggest you need to cozy up with Arafat, I apologise for giving you that impression.
But to say '
The only point I really feel strongly about is that there should be someone (a multi-national group) policing terrorism against Isreal (and others). It's pretty simple. It just makes sense. And it would turn the heat down on all the religious rhetoric, in my opinion. People say this isn't a religious war, and I can agree with that, but I wouldn't try to sell that view to every person in the world. Many do see it as a religious war, and Isreal is playing into this notion. Not by rhetoric, mainly, but by divine right.
Isreal needs leadership with more imagination, IMO. Calling the rest of the world 'naive' is doing little for the cause.
You come across as A decent individual,but if you do'nt understand what Arafats agenda is then I would say that you are still as "naive" as you were about the 911 incident. You ca'nt negotiate with terrorists. To no avail there is A history of negotiation with Arafat and his ilk .I do not mean to offend. Negotiation breeds more terrorism.
"So with all due respect to the price of your gasoline, and with all due respect to your wish to behead Sadam (why not talk
peace with him instead, btw? isn't that how you solve differeces in a civilized world?? do you want us to send over
observers to baghdad??)
We have a war to fight here. A war against terrorism. A war for the right to live.
Why not practice what you preech and come FIGHT terrorism instead of APPEASING IT?"
I'm not appeasing terrorism. I think it should be prosecuted without mercy. I just don't think it is in Isreal's best interest to be the prosecutor, in this case. I don't think it is in the U.S. best interest in its case, either. For problems such as these, I believe there should be international bodies to attend to such crimes.
You seem to continue to brand me as an Arafat supporter. I am not. Nor do I support Sharon. In your mind, you judge all who do not agree with you as 'appeasers', it would seem. You shouldn't do that.
I answered your question as best I could. Who knows what Arafat's current agenda is? You have not convinced me now, or at any point in the past, that he wants nothing less than the whole enchilada (the end of Isreal). I don't believe that, the political realities don't bear this out.
And I guess that's what I find so frustrating. I believe that there are some political realities at play here that both sides continue to ignore by and large. The biggest one being that peace will eventually come. When do you want it?
I get the impression that short of all out war against the Palestinian nation, that you would like to keep the status quo, ie. no definition of a Palestinian state, much as it is for the indefinite future. Correct me if I am wrong.
That Arafat left the table with the arguably generous Isreali offer, well, that is a disgrace. But it doesn't follow that war is the only answer.
I'll say it again- I don't look to Arafat to be the hero in this. And I never thought for a minute that he would be able, even if he wanted to, to stop the terrorist attacks against Isreal. I would be very surprised if any Isrealis imagined he would have such inclination OR power to achieve this to Isreal's satisfaction. What a fantasy.
(cont. next post)
The current military operation has two main objectives, the way I see it:
1. To do what Arafat, the arch-terrorist with more blood on his hands than you'll ever know, failed to do because he didn't want to do:
Dismantle the gigantic war machine he has created, with the help of all the naive bastards who gave him money and support (including true idiots in Israel, such as Shimon Peres). Arrest/kill/exile the wanted terrorists. Collect the enormous amounts of ammo. Crush the infrastructure.
But the other one is *much* more important:
To show arafat that NO, Israel does not fold when it is attacked. NO, we are not weak. NO, terror doesn't give you a prize. NO, violenece is not the answer. You wanna talk? we'll talk. But if you point a gun at us - you'll get a tank at you.
Look what is going on in south Lebanon now. Are you following? Did the Hizbollah stop fighting? start smoking pot and sing Kumbaya around the bonn fire? Nope. They are attacking us. Why? cause they never really said they will act elsewise. Israel is still their enemy. Only now, they are already sitting on our northern border, have better weapons and can almost reach Tel-Aviv with their new and improved shipments from Iran/Syria which the hypocritical world doesnt want to see.
Does the world care? are they talking about condemning Syria, the No 4 active terrorist country in the world (after Iran, Iraq and Saudi) Nope. They allow her to sit in the UN's security council instead. And who is gonna pay the price, as always, ISRAEL.
Israel is a soverign country. It is not a puppit state of the US. It is not a banana republic. We ain'tno ranch in texas. The US needs us JUST AS MUCH (if not MORE) than we need the US.
So with all due respect to the price of your gasoline, and with all due respect to your wish to behead Sadam (why not talk peace with him instead, btw? isn't that how you solve differeces in a civilized world?? do you want us to send over observers to baghdad??)
We have a war to fight here. A war against terrorism. A war for the right to live.
Why not practice what you preech and come FIGHT terrorism instead of APPEASING IT?
In May 2000 Israel withdrew from South Lebanon. The UN stamped the withdrawal and said we complied 100% with their demands (very unique if you know the history of Israel's relationship with the UN). The US praised us. Hell, even anti-semitic Europe gave us the thumbs up on that one. We withdrew in such a nature that an outside observer might have called as...hmmm...not very "courageous". To say the least. Some would say...hmmmm...ran away with our tails between our legs.
Israel did that because we had an extremely naive PM then, called Barak, who might be the most decorated soldier in our history, but didn't learn one thing about the Arab mentality. When Arabs see you getting out of their land after fighting for 18 years over it, they say to themselves: we got those
4 months later the current "Intifada", as they call it, started. Coincidence? I think not.
Now, if you were following the news during the past 10 years, as you claimed you have been, you probably remember Israel trying to bend backwards to achieve peace with them. We can argue about Netanyahu's era, but we definitely can't argue about Rabin's, Peres', and especially not Barak's era, right?
Barak offered Arafat in Camp David 95% of the territories of the west bank and Gaza. He talked about dividing Jerusalem. He even was willing to give them 5% as a compensation for the remaining land from the Negev desert.
And Arafat, only 5% from his outspoken (but not true) goal - decided to open a bloody war upon us.
When you are trying to close a business deal with another side. And you and the other side have differences on only 5% of the issue, do you consider smashing everything you have achieved, throwing it all to the garbage can and burning all ties with the other side? No. You'd work out a deal for the other 5% in a peaceful way. That's what you'd do.
So why didn't Arafat do the same?
Because Arafat decided to go for the whole cake. He said to himself: those Israeli wimps were kicked out of Lebanon by the Hizbollah. Now they're offering me 95% of the territories without any effort on my part. The jews are weak. They are not as they used to be. I'm gonna go for the grand prize and the hell with those
That's what happened. That's how they think. They are primitive. Concessions are a weakness not a vertue. Peace is a weakness. Kindness is a weakness. When the enemy is weak - you strike. Like the animals think.
OK, back to reality... (1 more post ahead)
Your reply, as all your posts, shows that you are an intelligent man who is very interested in politics. The fact that you majored in political science did not surprise me.
However, be fair and notice that although your post was full of interesting data, you did not answer my question either than going around the issue and adding the conclusion that "it's hard to tell" what he wants to achieve.
I didn't ask you this question for nothing. I asked you this because it is a key issue in order to understand why Israel is reacting the way she is.
Do you really think that 5 million Jews, some of them even not very dumb, are willing to go through HELL on a daily basis and support this campaign just because we are fighting for the "territories"? just in the name of the "settlements"? just to preserve "occupation"? Pride? Ego? Revenge?
I am here to tell you: HELL NO (there are some who are, but not the majority).
So what is it then, you ask, religion? holy places? Judaism vs. Islam? NO AGAIN (for the majority).
This is NOT a war over RELIGION. This is NOT a war over the "settlements" or Gaza and the west bank.
Arafat is not fighting (only) for the "territories". He is fighting over ALL of Israel as it is known today: From Mt. Hermon in the north till Eilat in the south. From the meditarranean sea in the west to the Jordan river in the east. And here's another fact: he won't stop there either. He has a vision of creating a Paletinian state which will cover Jordan as well (which is now 80% Palestinians and 20% bedouins, from which the Hashemite kingdom has originated (a minority of 20% rules over the majority)).
How do I know that? maybe I'll tell you in the future. It'll call for a very long e-mail correspondence between us and is too large in scope for this board. We'll have to talk history, we'll have to talk dates, and documents, and agreements, and speeches, etc...for the whole picture to be conveyed.
However, just so you won't say that I'm running away from even a short explanation, here's 1 interesting thing to think about that doesn't involve a heavy correspondence and you should have most of the facts to be able to address the subject if you have been following the news during the past 10 years, as you claimed you have.
I'll write this argument in my next post, immediately following this one.
Hard to tell. On the one hand, he has a Nobel prize to show for his efforts, on the other he is linked to terrorists far and wide. I realize he is considered one of the most heinous terrorists in the history of the world, among Isrealis. I won't argue with that, just as it is pointless to argue with those that would compare Sharon in a similar light. They both have decades of blood on their hands, and the whole debate about who is right and who is wrong seems way beyond the point. At the moment, I believe Arafat is waiting for the U.S. and others to get more involved.
When Isreal and U.S. decided to marginalize Arafat some months back, this made sense to me, although I wouldn't presume to know whether it was THE best idea. But I could understand it. At this point, just when the strategy seemed to be paying dividends, I believe Isreali actions are the cause of new and unanticipated support for Arafat. He certainly doesn't have my support, I hope this is clear.
I do support a Palestinian state, however. And I haven't given in to the mantra that a 'once and for all' war is the solution to the problems facing Isrealis and Palestinians.
It is true, I watch the U.S. actions (and inaction) much closer than I do other nations. Just as you watch Isreal's. I have always felt that the U.S. have not done enough to secure peace in the region, and even now are not doing enough. I have also observed that neither Isreal or the PA nor the rest of the arab countries in the region are to be commended for their peace efforts to date.
Let me ask you a question, DSY- How exactly would you like to see the U.S. proceed in helping to broker peace in the region? Do you see any potential for moderate arab states to help stabilize the situation? And regards the EU, besides keeping their mouths shut, what would you have them bring to the table?
What a change in your approach...
I still remember previous posts of yours with quite a different conclussion at the end.
I guess that's what life in Europe 2002 does to an individual now-a-days, even when he's an intelligent person as yourself, one with ability to see through the smoke and get to the bottom card of the deck.
I will not critisize your (new) point of view. It is YOUR view and you are entitled to hold it. You have full rights to do so.
I won't try to explain why (in my, not so humble, opinion) you are reading the map wrongly.
Just think of the fact that the US "never took any prisoners" in its own wars and never gave a damn about what the world would say, including in the current war in Afghanistan
(which is turning out to be a much smaller "war on terror" in its scope than what Bush originally claimed to be striving for).
In addition, I can only point out several "events" in which the world thought certain things about the Jews/Israel and as result of not fighting back (or not being able to fight back...) we found ourselves in quite heavy *hit, pardon my German.
I donno if you are still in Europe or back in the US, but I can only say one thing:
With regards to Israel, Europe has only one right reserved: to shut the *uck up.
Regarding the US, the situation is very different, but when it comes to Europe...
I lived 40 years in the U.S., and now 6 months in europe (temporary assignment). I am american. I don't believe that these 6 months in europe have done much to taint my opinions. Perhaps I am exposed to different media, but I still rely on the NYTimes for my main source of info and opinion. If you think it is all lies, than your opinion is as valid as anyone elses.
I have heaps of empathy for zionism and the plight of Isreal, always have, always will. I wouldn't trust Arafat as far as I could throw him. Still, I think I'm entitled to be sickened by the many individuals and groups from both sides of the conflict that seem to be tilting toward full-blown war. I think this is a mistake, and it is a war that will know no end and stop at no border. I am all for fighting against terrorism, but, as with my own country, I would vote that it be a fight of international coalitions. It should be about international law, and not about religion.
I reject the notion that war is the only way. I ask you and the rest of the world to encourage an international solution to the plight of Isreal AND the creation of a Palestinian state.
It is time to make peace, make concessions, make hope. As long as Isreal carries the scorn of the entire world, including it's only patron, things aren't looking too good. You can tell europe or whoever else to
I know, Dont, that I will never know all the tiny truths that make up your reality, and if you feel the need to push for a 'once and for all' kind of war (forgive me for laughing, as if war were ever once and for all....do you plan to wipe out all of your enemies, or just the Palestinians?), than so be it.
I for one invested in MAGS because in a
Did you notice that the Palestinians are also saying "f*ck you!" to the US and the world (as you put it in your original post)?
It seems odd that you missed that little detail, a small detail which is quite obvious from where these lines are being written.