I have felt like a neutral observer in the verbal war between Ukkie and DSJ. I have two children and four grandchildren in Israel. I have a son who flies for El Al, and an in-law in the defense establishment. I visited Israel last month and will again next month. I have no respect for Arafat, the PA, and (needless to say), terrorist agitators and organizers.
I have enormous appreciation for the depth of DSY's feelings. However, I find Ukkie's moral compass much more to my liking.
Like Ukkie, I am revolted by the dumb, brutal and evil things people of all
nations and identiities have done. I am no less revolted when they are done ostensibly in my interest (i. e., to protect my children and grandchildren, along with other Israelis).
I believe it is true that the world tends to impose stricter standards on Israel, and that Israel has been generally more cautious in its military tactics than the US (or Russia, in Chechnya and Afghanistan), but it looks to me that Sharon is both dumb (in the way that the VietNam war's "Best abd Brightest" were dumb) and brutal.
Where is the end of back-and-forth butchery? All I can foresee is international intervention: a US/UN "grown-up" rushing in to break up a mindless schoolyard scrap.
That's exactly what the situation in Israel/Palestine seems like to me now. Scrapping children without much rationality on either side.
Not wanting to, I find that DSY's responses to Ukkie are the ones that are patronizing and condescending, and even beyond that, arrogant.
I hate to say it, but if his reponses were typical of Israeli sentiment, I would have no hope for Israel as a nation, and no especial desire for it to succeed. I would be left only with the wish that my children and their children survive, and as many other good people as possible.
The US ravaged Japan and Germany and then rehabiliated them and befriended them. But neither had we helped to stimulate the conflict by grabbing and settling land, nor did we have to live with them in the aftermath of conflict cheek by jowl, day-to-day as neighbors.
Thank you so much, captschnorrer, for peacefully and patiently articulating exactly what I attempted to in my hurried frustration.
I am very heartened that there are other voices out there who recognize brutality and diminishing returns when they see them.
I share your sentiments on this matter part and parcel.
1. I am starting to think that maybe none of us armchair warriors and armchair diplomats should be saying anything about the situation in Israel - since we do not live there -
we do not really know what it must be like to be living under the constant and continued threat of TERRORISM.
2. I believe it is a KNOWN fact that A**H****
like Shehada purposely surround themselves with civilians - babies - children - they don't care - as human SHIELDS.
3. Why the HUGE outcry that a few children were killed when Shehada and his MURDEROUS ilk encourage teenagers to become "martyrs"?
They should be PROUD then, according to their sick, nihilistic values that children were killed. More young "martyrs" for them!
4. Shehada's 14-year old daughter was killed.
You know what - you can call me whatever names you like for saying this - I really don't care that she was killed!!! I look at her - as just another HOMICIDE-BOMBER-IN-TRAINING.
Maybe the children who were killed were the HOMICIDE BOMBERS of the class of 2010.
5. Shehada was the #1 MOST WANTED on Israeli's list of terrorists.
He was responsible for orchestrating the MURDERS of HUNDREDS of Israeli citizens and the MAIMING of HUNDREDS more in the past 22 months.
Hamas has claimed responsibility for at least 21 HOMICIDE attacks in the last 22 months.
I AM GLAD THAT THE IAF GOT HIM!!!
If there was collaterol damage - so be it...
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN WAR...unfortunately...
6. I am not an Israeli, I don't live in Israel, I've never been to Israel, but when I read statements like the following - I am AMAZED at the amount of restraint the people of Israel and Israel's defense forces show.
"It was a massacre and an awful crime carried out against our innocent children."
(a quote from the bastion of BS - Yasser Araft)
If I were an Israeli I would feel SUFFOCATED -
I would feel like EXPLODING from the HYPOCRISY of such Palestinian Propaganda.
These words from the "leader" of a people that teach their children starting in PRE-SCHOOL to hate Israelis and Jews - teach them that their highest goal in life is kill Israelis and Jews.
7. Ukkie and Captschnorrer - I am starting to believe there is no hope - the situation in Israel - is untenable - and NOT because of the Israelis - this is not a "schoolyard scrap" -
This is one battle in the war between Western Democracy and the Forces of Nihilism in the Arab World.
And I fear, we are going to lose...
As POGO would say -
"I have seen the enemy...and it is us..."
You'd have no problem with the way I express myself if I were a blind, bitter, hateful apologist for actions such as the most recent F16 incident.
La la land. That's right. The world outside Israel's ever-expanding borders is La-La land.
Let's see, I've been called patronizing, and condescending. You haven't called me the enemy yet, but I'm sure you will.
Bare in mind, I would fight for Israel's right to exist, but I will never support such gross disregard for human life.
Obnoxious Idealist? Maybe. But I wouldn't trade it for your black bitterness for all the land and money in the world.
I really think it's time to end this thread.
You have made yourself very clear.
You have said of me -
"Your rhetoric is just sick..."
And that's fine -
You are entitled to your opinion.
In my opinion YOU and all the people with attitudes and viewpoints similar to yours -
are a far bigger danger to the State of Israel than Nasdaq_1000.
At least he doesn't pretend to be a friend to Israel the way all the so-called liberals and moderates do.
At least with Nasdaq, I know where I stand.
The Palestinians do not just want a Palestinian State - they WANT THE STATE OF ISRAEL!!
You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
BTW - Did you know there is a professor in New Mexico who believes that the United States is in illegal possession of parts of the Southwest
including the city in which I live.
He believes the whole area rightfully belongs to Mexico and the U.S. needs to give back chunks of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.
Do you think we should do that?
I don't think the Israelis should have to give up even ONE INCH of land.
In fact, I believe that the Palestinians have ALREADY been given a state - and that state is Jordan.
Let them all go there...
If you believe that Israel should refuse to give up even one inch of land, then I agree, you should end this thread.
By the way, I don't pretend to be a friend of Israel, I am one. You, on the other hand, are doing Israel no favors. Sure, you support the hard liners, but are deaf to anything but more war.
Let's assume you are right, that the Palestinians want the entire state of Israel. How do you purpose stopping them from taking it? Killing them all? Forcing them all into Jordan? Fighting, fighting, fighting and laying the groundwork for war for your great grandchildren?
You fight your war, Dizzy, and I will fight mine. I will be happy to leave you out of it.
>>> "By the way, I don't pretend to be a friend of Israel, I am one. You, on the other hand, are doing Israel no favors."
Your policies will lead to the destruction of Israel, therefore, you are deffinitely NOT a friend of Israel. Your opinions represent about 5% of the Israeli population, and that's 5% too many.
DizzyCoffee, on the other hand, is a GREAT friend of Israel. Her opinions represent the vast majority of Israelis.
We'll choose our friends, thank you for your concern.