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Monsanto Company Message Board

  • tgsxpl tgsxpl Jul 3, 2001 12:41 AM Flag

    Economics For Dummies Course 1

    Roll Call:
    Class in session!

    Supply and Demand trumps all in capitalism.
    Here is a REAL WORLD example. That's how I'll teach my courses. I know this will make all of my class very uncomfortable, but it's good for you, expands the horizons.
    Look at the energy situation. When did the energy producers make the most money, when everyone had plenty of energy or when there was a shortage?
    Now, repeat after me:
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl
    I will not question tgsxpl

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    • >>Would it sit better if I said Monsanto did not make Agent Orange again?!?!?!<<

      >>Agent Orange: The Poisoning of Vietnam
      The herbicide "Agent Orange", which was used by US military forces to defoliate the rainforest ecosystems of Vietnam during the 1960s (see H. Warwick in this issue) was a mixture of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D that was available from several sources, but Monsanto�s Agent Orange had concentrations of dioxin many times higher than that produced by Dow Chemical, the defoliant�s other leading manufacturer. This made Monsanto the key defendant in the lawsuit brought by Vietnam War veterans in the United States, who faced an array of debilitating symptoms attributable to Agent Orange exposure. When a $180 million settlement was reached in 1984 between seven chemical companies and the lawyers for the veterans, the judge ordered Monsanto to pay 45.5 per cent of the total.�5
      In the 1980s, Monsanto undertook a series of studies designed to minimize its liability, not only in the Agent Orange suit, but in continuing instances of employee contamination at its West Virginia manufacturing plant. A three and a half year court case brought by railroad workers exposed to dioxin following a train derailment revealed a pattern of manipulated data and misleading experimental design in these studies. An official of the US EPA concluded that the studies were manipulated to support Monsanto�s claim that dioxin�s effects were limited to the skin disease chloracne. Greenpeace researchers Jed Greer and Kenny Bruno describe the outcome:
      "According to testimony from the trial, Monsanto misclassified exposed and non-exposed workers, arbitrarily deleted several key cancer cases, failed to verify classification of chloracne subjects by common industrial dermatitis criteria, did not provide assurance of untampered records delivered and used by consultants, and made false statements about dioxin contamination in Monsanto products."�7
      The court case, in which the jury granted a $16 million punitive damage award against Monsanto, revealed that many of Monsanto�s products, from household herbicides to the Santophen germicide once used in Lysol brand disinfectant, were knowingly contaminated with dioxin. "The evidence of Monsanto executives at the trial portrayed a corporate culture where sales and profits were given a higher priority than the safety of products and its workers," reported the Toronto Globe and Mail after the close of the trial.�8 "They just didn�t care about the health and safety of their workers," explains author Peter Sills. "Instead of trying to make things safer, they relied on intimidation and threatened layoffs to keep their employees working."
      A subsequent review by Dr. Cate Jenkins of the EPA�s Regulatory Development Branch documented an even more systematic record of fraudulent science. "Monsanto has in fact submitted false information to EPA which directly resulted in weakened regulations under RCRA [Resources Conservation and Recovery Act] and FIFRA [Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act] .. reported Dr. Jenkins in a 1990 memorandum urging the agency to undertake a criminal investigation of the company. Jenkins cited internal Monsanto documents revealing that the company "doctored" samples of herbicides that were submitted to the US Department of Agriculture, hid behind "process chemistry" arguments to deflect attempts to regulate 2,4-D and various chlorophenols, hid evidence regarding the contamination of Lysol, and excluded several hundred of its sickest former employees from its comparative health studies:
      Monsanto covered up the dioxin contamination of a wide range of its products. Monsanto either failed to report contamination, substituted false information purporting to show no contamination or submitted samples to the government for analysis which had been specially prepared so that dioxin contamination did not exist.�9<<

    • now what you think it said.

      "amid reports that as many as 70 percent smoke pot at least on a recreational basis."

      1) Whose reports? A stoned NBA player's? Please refer to my previous comments.

      2) Even if true, what the hell does that have to do with your lies on genetic modification and Agent Orange? It also does nothing to negate my original comments on the subject which was that pot is not healthy, nor are any foreign substances inhaled into the lungs. That perhaps being a professional athlete mitigates some of that damage AND that I doubted you were as physically fit as an NBA player. I stand by those remarks!!!!!!!!

      Nor am I waffling on the Agent Orange issue.

      Would it sit better if I said Monsanto did not make Agent Orange again?!?!?!

      I was giving you the statement for argument's sake. Not that I believe it. I still believe it was made by a German company and sold to Dow.

      It was still the military that mixed the herbicides (most assuredly not in accordance with instructed use) with other chemicals and kerosene or diesel fuel. It was still the military that used the MIXTURE in a strength much greater than that instructed and that used commercially at the time.

      And who is it Dow, Monsanto, Union Carbide or perhaps some other chemical company you decide to slander...Greenpuds can't even decide? Why do they patent everything else but not this?

      And you never did this reliable website of yours the same one that can't even get easily verifiable facts like merger info correct?

      Still haven't heard why mainstream media is reliable when they post something that agrees with your agenda but the editor always seems to step in to change the story when it diesn't?!?!?! Like when they accurately report it "a substance like Roundup" Certainly the freconuts (I've changed the spelling to more accurately reflect the econut roots) would have no agenda to make Monsanto look bad would they?

      Also still waiting for that AP link or Wellstones's office to respond to verify. No I don't deny the Wellstone event because I don't have any reliable source (chiefly AP) on which to form an opinion...a real world lesson you would be good to learn about.

      If I said Sen. Wellstone endorses Roundup and genetic modification and posted a story crediting the same facts to AP, but you couldn't find a direct link by AP or on his website, I'm guessing you would be a bit skeptical as well, especially with your great conspiracy theory THC-fogged brain.

      I've already got my degree from college actually, some years ago. Probably a reason I deal in facts. But hey don't be nervous about taking those college entrance exams you may find one that accepts you. Perhaps something in the agri-sciences field given your plant growing experience. Never mind, that would inevitably teach you about the safety and importance of the world of genetic modification and the benefits of Roundup over other chemical herbicides and THAT would send your dream world caving in.

      Oh among other things still waiting to hear how much money you are going to FORCE the organic food industry to set aside for world hunger?!?!?!?!

      And still haven't recieved a good answer to the US soybean farmer question as bait and switch doesn't hold water since RR soy already cost more to buy?!?!?!?!? Or is it that you think the farmers are so stupid they can't CHOOSE which seed to buy and know when the benefits no longer warrant the extra cost? MON and I trust their intelligent decision making ability.

    • >>But since you brought up the NBA player thing please see my explanation of Wilt Chamberlain and his incredulous claim on the number of his sexcapades as reason why I believe some players may tend to exaggerate. <<

      You're just making yourself look more and more stupid! I guess CBS exaggerates, too? How much documentation do I need to provide before you deem it legitimate?

      >>Blowing Smoke: Marijuana Use NBA's Biggest Drug Concern These Days
      by Mike Kahn

      July 20, 1998 - CBS SportsLine

      The stock line with regard to marijuana use in the NBA for years went something like this if commissioner David Stern walked in on a team at halftime and they were getting high, he would have no other recourse than to smile and just say no if a player asked him if he had a light.

      Evidently, players rarely say no these days amid reports that as many as 70 percent smoke pot at least on a recreational basis. <<

      >>Again I do not concede that 2,4,5-T was developed by Monsanto, but even conceding that point, it by itself is not Agent Orange. It is two herbicides plus other chemicals plus kerosene or diesel fuel. My sources still say it was developed by a German company and intr <<

      Huh? Are you training to be a Monsanto lawyer? Here's a tip for you, junior, free of charge. Have some gonads! You're waffling on everything:

      Call me a pothead (though you have been known to dabble)

      Question my Wellstone link, but don't deny the incident happened.

      Deny Monsanto's involvement with Agent Orange, but don't deny they were involved in making one of it's components.

      What political office you planning on running for when you get out of school?

    • obvious inability to control my anger (Thought I would be McDolphin to one of his favorite misconceptions) I should correct an important point.

      In the next to the last 'graph in Part 1, I typed "And it was also the military that used this herbicide mixture in a less than instructed dilutive form"...This should read " a greater than instructed...)

      Sorry, Damn anger!! Guess I need to smoke some dope and chill. Do they still call it vegging?

      Is it just me or do other people not take time to proofread before hitting the "Post Message" button? I guess I should as it gives McDolphin an easy target. Wish I had the time to proofread as Rainblow (oops, intentional or not?) does.

      Hope I never catch my otter uterine smelling, Kodiac sphincter tasting freakonut friend not misspelling. As I would take great delight in pointing that out. Ohhhh to what depths I have sunk. And here I thought I couldn't get any lower than the gutter.

    • I will however concede that probably many workers suffered consequences from many different companies that developed herbicides and chemicals years ago. And that coal workers didn't have anything to keep them from breathing in coal dust. And [insert here any of the other myriad of things that harmed workers that we have learned more about as we progress and evolve].

      This is very unfortunate, but progress is never without risk. And the econut demand for 100% safety is ludicrous and would hinder progress (which is probably their real aim anyway as progress benefits corporations as well as humanity) and the many beneficial things that this progress has given us.

      Suppose an AIDS drug extends someone's life 20 years but at 15 years it begins to cause some sort of unwanted slowly debilitating side effect that was not known when it was developed. This is not a 100% safe drug and had an unintended consequence. Is it your and the econut proposition to deny this person those extra 20 years including 15 without side effect becuase of this, and the fact that a company made money off of it? Well probably since you would have denied them the drug in the first place as not 100% off the people who could benefit from it can afford it.

      Tell us who are the humanitarians?

    • Yes I would still like a direct link to the AP website. You posted an article which could have been written by anyone or erroneously (Never would want to accuse the econuts of lying) attributed to the AP.

      Once again, I AM NOT DENYING the Wellstone incident happened however I have been unable to independently authenticate it despite having searched numerous AP articles on Monsanto, Roundup, drug war and Wellstone. I also have yet to hear back from Senator Wellstone's office confirming or denying this story.

      Again sorry for my skepticism but considering the amount of lies you and your "source" sites have tried to pass off as true and the inability to get easily verifiable facts like MON NEVER HAVING BOUGHT DLP or the "terminator" gene technology that was being co-devloped with the USDA correct, I believe this skepticism is warranted.

      See in the real world things get questioned. I know this dismays you and yoour freakonut friends when the light is turned on you. (By the way if the terminator gene was commercially available it would do a lot to prevent things like dear Mr. Schmeiser's claims of accidental seeding. And most certainly would prevent him from stealing the technology as he really did. Either way he wouldn't have been forced to defend himself because th eplants wouldn't be there.)

      My use of vulgarity in now way diminishes my claims of falsity any more than your use diminshes your lies. But since you brought up the NBA player thing please see my explanation of Wilt Chamberlain and his incredulous claim on the number of his sexcapades as reason why I believe some players may tend to exaggerate. Do you believe evreything John Rocker had to say about New York? After all he should know, he's a professional athlete who has been to New York.

      Re: Agent Orange. Is this the saem site that messed up the MON/DLP non-merger fact? Would anyone else like to weigh in on the Agent Orange issue? As I know that, depending on which article you look at, falsely attribute the creation of Agent Orange to know less than 3 chemical companies-Monsanto, Dow and Union-Carbide. If any one of these companies was responsible for developing it, wouldn't they have patented it? they certainly want the other two making money off of it, being the greedy evil capitalists they are. But for what Agent Orange is read further.

      But please also note this does not deny negate my facts. Even the statement you post from your sebsite does not negate it. I do not concede that one of the two herbicides used in Agent Orange, specifically 2,4,5-T was made by Monsanto. But even if it had been as this story suggests by:

      "Monsanto workers had regularly become sick with symptoms such as skin rashes, joint and limb pain, after being exposed to 2,4,5-T, the specific Agent Orange component that breaks down to form TCDD"

      It is true that 2,4,5-T does have dioxin as an unfortunate byproduct of its manufacture and that this dioxin is what contaminated Agent Orange. However if you read this it says "the specific Agent Orange component"

      This only supports what I have said. That Agent Orange was a nearly 50/50 mixture of two (2) herbicides with a couple other chemicals and kerosene or diesel fuel mixed in. It was this MIXTURE of herbicides and chemicals and fuel that was done by the military that makes Agent Orange. And it was also the military that used this herbicide mixture in a less than instructed dilutive form. These herbicides were used in a strength far greater than that of the comercial uses for which they had been developed and for which the dilution ratio was instructed. Again by the military.

      Again I do not concede that 2,4,5-T was developed by Monsanto, but even conceding that point, it by itself is not Agent Orange. It is two herbicides plus other chemicals plus kerosene or diesel fuel. My sources still say it was developed by a German company and intr

    • >>But I would like an AP link to the Wellstone article. Not what some freakonut website psoted(sic). <<

      It's almost like this was orchestrated! Even I couldn't have planned that better. I wound up finding EXACTLY what you demanded. Pretty funny. Exactly like what happened with the NBA claim. I see a pattern here:
      1. I make a claim
      2. You use vulgarity to dispute it, questioning my "environmentally sensitive" (not in those words) source, and demand confirmation via the mainstream (corporate owned) media.
      3. I find said confirmation
      4. You pout and say I eat the excrement of some extinct or near extinct animal.

      Next order of business, more on Agent Orange. Of course, this is from that same "freco-nut site" that mtcbitch doesn't like, so I may have to get an AP article to back it up (be careful what you ask for, grasshopper). Enjoy!!

      Agent Orange: D�j� vu all over again?
      For many, Monsanto's Roundup is a case of d�j� vu. This is not the first time that a Monsanto herbicide product has been accused of doing ecological damage and harm to humans during a war. To understand the potential ramifications of the use of Roundup in Colombia, it is worth looking at the consequences of Agent Orange in Vietnam. During the Vietnam war, the U.S. used a series of chemical defoliant "agents" named for the green, pink, blue, purple, and orange colored rings around their oil drum containers. The concept was to remove cover-foliage from the guerilla enemy to make it vulnerable to attack. One of the herbicides used was called Agent Orange (a 50/50 mixture of herbicides 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T), and it proved very effective. However, there was a problem: varying amounts of a breakdown product of the "dioxin" class called TCDD was part of the mixture.
      Later -- and far too late for many people -- TCDD was shown to have various, very serious toxic effects. According to the 1994 Seventh Annual Report on Carcinogens, Agent Orange causes "toxic effects in animals includ[ing] the wasting syndrome, gastric ulcers, immunotoxicity, hepatotoxicity, hepatoporphyria, vascular lesions, chloracne, teratogenicity, fetotoxicity, impaired reproductive performance, endometriosis and delayed death." It also proved toxic to humans. The application of Agent Orange and TCDD not only deforested large areas of Vietnam, but it also caused over 50,000 birth defects and hundreds of thousands of cancers both in Vietnamese civilians and soldiers, as well as in former U.S. troops serving in South East Asia. The effects of Agent Orange are still being experienced, 26 years after the end of the war.
      This was bad enough, but after the war it came to light that Monsanto had known about this toxicity many years before, as early as the late 1940s and had tried to cover it up. At that time, Monsanto workers had regularly become sick with symptoms such as skin rashes, joint and limb pain, after being exposed to 2,4,5-T, the specific Agent Orange component that breaks down to form TCDD. After the end of the war, U.S. Vietnam veterans sued Monsanto for causing their illnesses. The company settled out of court, paying them about $80 million in damages. The Vietnamese victims received nothing.

    • textbooks (except perhaps the ecofreak version) or the real world.

      "Today, the top 10 seed companies control 30% of the global seed trade"-Again, assuming it is true because your source's have a poor reputation for accuracy, that would leave 70% of the global seed trade totaly out of their control. As I stated, and as you ahve proven yet another of my points, this is not a monopoly.

      And in case you haven't been paying attention to the real world news the Europeans just said Ford and Honeywell couldn't combine because of monopolistic concerns. Guess those two companies don't have as much money as Monsanto to influence the government huh? Or were they just throwing ou anti-capitalists a bone? And it seems in the US a while back something about a break up of some phone company into a bunch of smaller ones. Yep! Governments are squarely in the pocket of the corporations.

    • Beside the lie on this page about DLP let's examine the rest of your concerns.

      Cargill-smart business in the real world. Though there are those who would say Monsanto way overpaid adn thus had to seek merger opps.

      The other two points (Assuming they are accurate as your sources don't have a good track record) is there a problem?

      You would not like less land to be used for trees that will get chopped down and made into other products? (Translation: You want more land to be used for this) You would rather have a slower growing tree which may force timber companies onto other lands to seek these resources? (Translation: You want more virgin forest acreage to be given to the timber companies)

      You are against safe water for human consumption. Then why in the hell do you people keep stcreaming about companies dumping stuff in them? (By the way that last bit should scare you more because a shortage of potable weater is of much greater concern and closer to fruition than a massive food shortage)

    • "For $1.9 billion, Monsanto acquired Delta and Pine Land Company"

      Still trying to connect Monsanto to the "terminator gene" I see. In addition to the fact that this so-called terminator gene is not in commercial use:


      If you knew anything about the real world you would know that deal never went through!!


      Idiot! Moron! Told you not to rely on these lying econut sites. If they can't even get a simple verifiable fact like that right, we can only imagine what there track record is like for complex issues like the history of Agent Orange.

      It would appear by this that it is your responses, not mine, that are getting weaker.

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