Recent

% | $
Quotes you view appear here for quick access.

Altria Group Inc. Message Board

you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the posts
  • todlondon todlondon Dec 3, 2012 11:14 AM Flag

    What is"difficult to grasp" is that anyone could or would deny the Holocaust

    Many years ago I had an Insurance Salesman with an accent named Jonas/ He had a very crude tattoo on his wrist that was blue numbers. It looked like it was etched in his wrist. He told me his family was in a German concentration camp as a young boy saw many in his family die.

    SortNewest  |  Oldest  |  Most Replied Expand all replies
    • "Many years ago I had an Insurance Salesman with an accent named Jonas/ He had a very crude tattoo on his wrist that was blue numbers. It looked like it was etched in his wrist. He told me his family was in a German concentration camp as a young boy saw many in his family die."

      60 million people died in WWII. That does not prove the existence of gas chambers or an intentional genocidal program of jews.

      After the End: Who Put the Bad in Bad Kreuznach?

      There was no "peace treaty" in place at the end of the War. German POWs were labelled "disarmed
      enemy forces" (DEF) rather that "prisoners of war" in order to skirt provisions of the Hague Land
      Warfare Convention which mandated humane treatment, including that which stated: “After the
      peace treaty, prisoners of war should be dismissed into their homeland within shortest period”. By
      this manipulation of justice, German POWS could be taken to the lands of their former enemies and
      used as slave labor for extended periods, often at the cost of their lives due to grim hardships
      encountered before, during and after transit. Furthermore, a German soldier designated as DEF had
      no right to any food, water or shelter, and could, as many thousands did, die within days.

      There were no impartial observers to witness the treatment of POWs held by the U.S. Army. From
      the date Germany unconditionally surrendered, May 8, 1945, Switzerland was dismissed as the
      official Protecting Power for German prisoners and the International Red Cross was informed that
      with no Protecting Power to report to, there was no need for them to send delegates to the camps.

      Half of the German POWs in the West were imprisoned by the US forces, half by the British. The
      number of prisoners reached such a huge proportion that the British could not accept any more, and
      the US consequently established the Rheinwiesenlager from April to September of 1945 where they
      quickly built a series of "cages" in open meadows and enclosed them with razor wire. One such
      notorious field was located at Bad Kreuznach where the German prisoners were herded into the open
      spaces with no toilets, tents or shelters. They had to burrow sleeping spaces into the ground with
      their bare hands and in some, there was barely enough room to lay down.

      In the Bad Kreuznach cage, up to 560,000 men were interned in a congested area and denied
      adequate food, water, shelter or sanitary facilities and they died like flies of disease, exposure and
      illness after surviving on less than 700 calories a day. There are 1,000 official graves in Bad
      Kreuznach, but it is claimed there are mass graves which have remained off limits to investigation.

      Only by the autumn of 1945, after most camps had closed or were in the process of closing, was the
      Red Cross granted permission to send delegations to visit camps in the French and UK occupation
      zones and to finally provide minuscule amounts of relief, and it was not until February 4, 1946, that
      the Red Cross was allowed to send even token relief to others in the U.S. occupation zone. The
      death rate for prisoners in these U.S. camps was at that point 30% per year, according to a U.S.
      medical survey, but nearly all the surviving records of the Rhineland death camps were destroyed.

      There were also numerous accidents in transport. A few weeks after the war officially ended, on July
      16, 1945, a US military freight train carrying tanks near Munich was signalled to proceed by an
      American signalman despite the track ahead being blocked by a train carrying German POWs which
      had stopped due to an engine breakdown. It slammed into it and killed 96 German soldiers.

      At the end of June, 1945 the first camps in Remagen, Böhl-Ingelheim and Büderich were dissolved.
      SHAEF offered the camps to the French, who wanted 1.75 million prisoners of war for use as slave
      labor. In July, Sinzig, Andernach, Siershahn, Bretzenheim, Dietersheim, Koblenz, Hechtzheim and
      Dietz, all containing thousands of prisoners, were given to France. In the British Zone, prisoners of
      war who were able to work were transferred to France and the rest were released. At the end of
      September, 1945 all the initial camps were dissolved.

      At one point, 80,000 prisoners of war a month were supposed to have to been returned from USA
      captivity and discharged into the Allied zones of Germany as part of the 1.3 million allotted to France
      for "rehabilitation work" (slave labor), but after the Red Cross reported that 200,000 of the prisoners
      already in French hands were so undernourished they were unfit for labor and likely to die over the
      winter, the USA stopped all transfers of prisoners to French custody until the French would maintain
      them in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

      By winter, 1947, it was estimated by the International Red Cross that 4,160,000 German POWs
      were still held in 'work camps' outside Germany: 750,000 in France, 30,000 in Italy, 460,000 in
      Britain, 48,000 in Belgium, 4,000 in Luxembourg and 1,300 in Holland (as discussed later, the Soviet
      Union started with 4,000,000-5,000,000, Yugoslavia had 80,000 and Czechoslovakia 45,000) as well
      as the USA's 140,000 in the US Occupation Zone with 100,000 more later also held in France.

      It is estimated that 700,000 to a million men may have died within the period they spent incarcerated
      in American and French camps alone from 1945 to 1948. There are much higher estimates, however,
      and attempts to uncover the truth regarding these camps in modern times, as well as excavation of
      reported mass grave sites, have been vigilantly thwarted by, among others, the German government.
      It is unknown how many perished under British captors but recently declassified documents indicate
      widespread torture and abuse. Under all of them, many of the prisoners were used to do dangerous
      work such as working with hazardous materials and mine sweeping in complete disregard of the law.

      In total, 5,025 German men and women were convicted of war crimes between 1945 and 1949 in
      the American, British and French zones by Allied War Crimes Trials. Over 500 were sentenced to
      death and the majority were executed, among them 21 women.

      • 3 Replies to btdt100
      • Perhaps the best discussion of conditions at the end of World War II in Germany is by John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., Professor of Preventive Medicine and Epidemiolo2gy at the Harvard University School of Public Health. I hesitate to give so many details about an author, but it is probably necessary to establish the fact that the excerpts which follow are not from someone who can be easily branded as another pro-German revisionist. The passages which follow were published in 1948 by the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

        (5) Foreigners in the Rhineland ...

        The whole area seethed with foreign peoples, conscript laborers moving this way and that and in all directions, hoping to reach their homes, in search of food, seeking shelter. Most of the typhus was within this group and they carried the disease with them. They moved along the highways and in country lanes -- now a dozen Roumanians pulling a cart loaded with their remaining belongings; here a little band of Frenchmen working their way toward France, there some Netherlanders, or perhaps Belgians; and everywhere, the varied nationalities of the East -- Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs, Russians. They moved mostly on foot, halted, then gathered in great camps of sometimes 15,000 or more, extemporized, of primitive sanitation, crowded, and with all too little sense of order or cleanliness.

        These were the people where typhus predominated, more than a half million of them in the Rhineland, wearied with the war, undernourished, poorly clothed and long inured to sanitary underprivilege and low level hygiene. Add to this shifting population the hundreds of released political prisoners, often heavily infected with typhus but happily far fewer in numbers; the German refugees, first moving ahead of our troops and then sifting back to their homes through the American lines. Rarely if ever has a situation existed so conducive to the spread of typhus.

        Typhus fever in a stable population is bad enough. It has demonstrated its potentialities in both war and peace. The Rhineland in those days of March, 1945, could scarcely be believed by those who saw it -- it is beyond the appreciation of those who did not. It was Wild West, the hordes of Genghis Khan, the Klondike gold rush, and Napoleon's retreat from Moscow all rolled up into one. Such was the typhus problem in the Rhineland.
        The Epidemiologic Situation

        The great assault of the Rhine River got under way on March 24, the British 21st Army Group and the U. S. Ninth Army to the north, the First and Third Armies in the center. and somewhat later the U. S. Seventh Army and the First French Army to the South. All found typhus fever; the British scarcely any, the Ninth some, the First and Third a great deal, while in the south the U. S. Seventh and the First French Armies again encountered relatively little.

        The first really serious condition appeared when Buchenwald concentration camp was occupied by the Third Army on April 12th. The British soon uncovered Belsen camp, with still more typhus and misery. Then followed in order Dachau, Flossenburg and finally Mauthausen, all with hundreds of cases of typhus fever and sometimes thousands.

        These concentration camps with their political prisoners and their typhus fever would have been problem enough. Added to the situation were millions of conscript laborers suddenly released from employment and from camps that were many times typhus infested. They scattered throughout the country. Many were gathered in large improvised camps. They spread typhus widely ... Germany in the spring months of April and May was an astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them.

      • It is hardly a surprise that Americans know even less about a foreign war, albeit one in which America had a major role, but where Americans were generally far removed from the areas of greatest misery except at the very end.

        Those who moralize about the piles of dead at Bergen-Belsen and Dachau should consider Andersonville, where 7,712 men died in six months out of an average of only 19,453 held. The Northern prison camps were also terrible. The "average number" of Confederates held in prisons by the North is 40,815 of whom 18,784 died. [12] Only 252 Confederates held in Northern prisons died from wounds whereas 5,965 died from di2arrhea and dysentery. [13]

        For the Mexican War (1846-48), the ratio of fatalities from disease to fatalities from wounds is even worse. 1,549 were killed or died from their wounds; 10,951 died of disease. [14]

        During the Crimean War (1854-56), 12,604 men in the French army died from wounds whereas 59,815 died from sickness. For the English, 4,602 died from wounds whereas 17,225 died from sickness. By contrast, although 35,671 Russians died from wounds, only 37,454 died from sickness. [15]22

        The accounts which we have about the spread of pestilence as a result of the Napoleonic wars are shocking:

        Because of the massive movements of troops through Germany, because of the quartering of the troops in houses of the civilian population and because of the economic consequences of the continental blockade, the groundwork after 1800 was especially well -- prepared for the spread of epidemics. Russian troop masses brought what was at the time called War -- typhoid -- which included paratyphoid, dysentery and similar diseases, but above all typhus-to Eastern Germany. The French contaminated not only Western Germany but all of Western Europe including Spain with "war-typhoid". Even in Sweden there were terrible epidemics. Only England remained untouched by the epidemics because of her position as an island.

        The catastrophe which befell the army of Napoleon, which had originally numbered 500,000 men, was completely sealed with pestilence. During the initial advance, in one battle, four-fifths of the men became casualties from disease. In Moscow, which was rich in provisions, the soldiers recovered again. But then, after the burning of Moscow when the 80,000 men of the French army had to return over the infested military roads, they were almost totally wiped out from dysentery, typhoid and typhus. In Smolensk, the number of troops who had to remain behind from typhoid and dysentery rose to 15,000. In Wilna of 30,000 captured French troops, 25,000 had succumbed to disease. Among the civilian population in Wilna at that time, 55,000 fatalities were reported in half a year.

      • Disease in War and its Aftermath2

        A standard feature of the Holocaust story is the reliance upon photographs of thousands of dead bodies found in some of the German concentration camps at the end of World War II. For people who are unfamiliar with the horrors of war, which includes most of us fortunately, those photographs are more than sufficient proof of a genocidal policy on the part of the German regime. Even for many veterans from the Western Allied armies who may have spent years reading the generally available literature, those photographs constitute convincing evidence of genocide. The claims of revisionists that the bodies were the result of catastrophic epidemics of typhus, typhoid, tuberculosis, dysentery, etc., are readily scoffed at as the foolish ravings of Nazi apologists. After all, how could disease alone have possibly caused such misery as one sees in those photographs? The bitter reality is that the photographs tell only a small part of the horrors of modern warfare.

        How many Americans have any idea that for every Union soldier who died during the American Civil War from combat, including those who died from wounds and injuries, there were approximately two Union soldiers who died from disease? Despite all that has been written and said in a hundred years about the Civil War and shown on film, it would be surprising if one American in a hundred has any idea as to the relative size of these numbers even though the Civil War was fought on American soil and is a major part of America's history.

        Out of a total of 359,5z8 Union deaths from all causes, 110,070 were killed and mortally wounded but 224,586 died from diseased. [6] Of the deaths from disease, 44,000 were from "diarrhea and dysentery, acute and chronic" and 34,883 were from Typhoid, typho-malarial, and continued fevers." [7] By contrast, the total number of deaths arising from combat at the Battle of Gettysburg for the Union army is only 3,155 and for the Confederate army is only 3,903.[8] Conditions in the Confederate armies were probably worse generally than those for the Union army but the statistics were apparently destroyed in a fire in Richmond. [9] As to civilian casualties from disease during the Civil War, especially in the South where most of the fighting occurred -- no one seems to know.

        In a well-written and moving book entitled Civil War Medicine, the author Stewart Brooks wrote:

        Surprising perhaps to the layman but not to the student of history, disease was the great killer of the war. As one soldier wrote, "These Big Battles is not as sad as the fever." Of the Federal dead, roughly three out of five died of disease, and of the Confederates, perhaps two out of three. During the first year, a third of the Union army was on sick call, and probably an even higher figure obtained South. Intestinal infections, such as typhoid and "chronic diarrhea," and "inflammation of the lungs" headed the list. Indeed, diarrhea and dysentery became more vicious as the fighting progressed. [10]

        A major cause of the high incidence of disease was the failure to take hygiene and sanitation seriously. The prison camps were, of course, terrible but apparently the camps where regular soldiers, i.e. not prisoners, spent months in the field were not much better. Brooks gives the following description of conditions in the camps generally:

 
MO
63.03-0.84(-1.32%)Sep 26 4:00 PMEDT