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North American Palladium Limited Şirket Message Board

  • bigsee4c bigsee4c Apr 30, 2013 2:29 PM Flag

    Pt. Pd. Substiutions

    This comment from BMO struck me as odd. Regarding PGM substitutions, it's my understanding that Pd. is increasing being used as a substitute for Pt. and that this was expected to continue, at least in the aggregate, so long as there is a significant price advantage in using Pd.

    Does anyone have any insights as to what BMO may be referring to by implying a net trend reversal.

    In reference to platinum prices:
    “The two main anticipated drivers for demand expansion are increasing European demand and platinum substitution for palladium. However, both are likely to take 18 months plus to manifest,” said BMO Capital Markets in a recent note.

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    • Google "Why Use Platinum in Catalytic Converters?" and read the Matthey paper, it should be the first listed.

    • One possibility in the case of gasoline autos, it may become necessary to use Pt instead of Pd if temperatures were to be increased beyond the capability of Pd, there are efforts to move the catalytic element as close to the combustion chamber as possible to conserve fuel and obtain a faster light-off.
      But I don't know the exact temperatures involved, just that Pt can handle nearly 750C where Pd can handle nearly 650C before sintering and loss of effectiveness begins to occur.

    • It may be a mistake and they meant the other way around. As l low sulphur diesel becomes the norm more PD can be used. It would make sense the other way around. By the way cc chemistry is quite comples and involves careful balance of oxygen and temperature and rich/lean mix.

      See:
      chemwiki.ucdavisDOTEDU/Physical_Chemistry/Kinetics/Case_Studies/Catalytic_Converters

    • I'm kinda glad I didn't get a response that explained why BMO's statement on Pd-Pt substitution made sense. If I missed something that suggests a trend change, at least I'm not the only one. Maybe JM will provide some insight in their PGM review which usually comes out mid-May.

    • My understanding is, Pd is capable of storing oxygen, a requirement for two-way converters, so that a second oxygen sensor behind the converter can be used to monitor the condition of the converter.

    • I think most Japanese cars, if not all, use palladium. Johnson and Mathey a few years ago invented/revieled a major advancement in cat converters: A CONFIGURABLE ONE that could easily use EITHER Pt or Pd as warranted! In their and other reports, the car converter industry is now not heavily predicated on palladium except in Europe due to their extensive use of diesel.

      When I was up at Ford HQ in Dearborn, MI last week they stressed their massive effort to do more with less and be super efficient. They have increased engine burn efficiency thus lowering the amount of pd used in cat converters. However since their production is increasing far faster than individual unit decreases if is not a concern at present. THE BIG WORRY: the Chinese actually will perfect their synthetic palladium. But I put that in the realm of mining palladium from asteroids, the moon, the bottom of the ocean, etc.

      Sentiment: Hold

    • To clarify, within the particular engine types, Pd has enjoyed a slow but significant trend of displacing Pt in converters. The gas engine Civic went from a Pd+Pt design to all Pd. The Pd/Pt ratio in diesels has also increased, as lower sulfur content allows.

      So does anyone have any insights on why this trend would not continue, so long as Pd is significantly less expensive? The SWC white paper last year suggested that this trend should continue to increase.

      Might the Euro 6 standards that go into effect next year require a higher Pt proportion?

      Or might BMO be off the mark with it's statement?

    • Platinum is being used in the converters on deisel trucks. These converters were mandated this year in all new deisels sold in the US. Palladium is used in gas powered cars due to the higher temps generated by the gasoline engines.

      Sentiment: Strong Buy

      • 2 Replies to aqualung_36
      • Platinum Tammann temp is 750C, and Pd Tammann temp is 650C Pt can handle higher temps.
        The primary difference is lighting temperature and sulfer content, diesels run lean by definition cannot be richened to increase exhaust temperature like gasoline engines are. Gasoline engines actually waste fuel in order to keep the converter lighted. Pt is resistant to sulfer contamination, so it makes a better catalyst than gold or copper. There are many catalytic metals, I suppose if the fuel had no sulfur then silver or copper could even be used in a diesel.

      • Yes, but the quote Bigsee put up mentioned 'substitution' of Pt for Pd.

        I fail to see how a new mandate of CC's for diesel trucks would require substitution of any sort when it likely means more demand for BOTH Pt and Pd if all else held equal.

 
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