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HP Inc. Message Board

  • poltava_v poltava_v Feb 18, 2012 6:12 PM Flag

    Still waiting....

    I thought the hardcore leftists would come up with the list of goods/services that the federal government makes you purchase from a private entity. You guys want to do that with health care insurance but have yet to list any other item that we are forced to buy from a private entity or face penalties from the feds. I already shredded your comparison to auto insurance so don't go there again.

    Before you far leftists run down the line of how healthcare is a 'right'...blah...blah....please list the other goods/services that the feds force you to buy with no way to opt out and if you don't comply the IRS comes after you.

    Thanks....I'm certain the list is long and start in.

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    • Morning, VT, I saw your link higher up in the threat to the opt-out of certain religous sects to being bound by the Healthcare Reform Act. I discovered that point too in my reading. You were exactly right in making this point in your original thread.

      As to the coercive / bureacractic aspects of the reform act here's a good summary:

      The private healthcare industry is told what plans they will be able to offer, what they will charge for them, and how much administrative overhead and profit they're allowed to make.

      As to setting price controls directly on doctors and hospitals here's a link that describes the "INDEPENDENT PAYMENT ADVISORY BOARD." This is a 15-member board appointed by the President. Its authority is currently limited to Medicare, not to the rest of healthare.

      I was overstating its reach saying that it will set price controls on ALL of healthcare at the present time, but IMO it will not belong before its ability to set price controls and ration the delivery of healthcare services will be extended to all procedures. However, that's just my opinion:

      Finally, it's sobering to look at all the taxes that are supposed to be increased to fund Obamacare:

      Total new tax revenue from the Act will amount to $409.2 billion over the next 10 years. $78 billion will be realized before the end of fiscal 2014.[37] Summary of revenue sources:

      Broaden Medicare tax base for high-income taxpayers: $210.2 billion
      Annual fee on health insurance providers: $60 billion
      40% excise tax on health coverage in excess of $10,200/$27,500: $32 billion
      Impose annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs: $27 billion
      Impose 2.3% excise tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices: $20 billion
      Require information reporting on payments to corporations: $17.1 billion
      Raise 7.5% Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction to 10%: $15.2 billion
      Limit contributions to flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans to $2,500: $13 billion
      All other revenue sources: $14.9 billion

      I doubt even this will be anywhere enough to fund the program, because government always underestimates the expense of its new programs.

      That's all for now. I got a headache trying to read the d--- bill.

    • And health insurance is now the condition attached to the state granted privilege of science based health care. You now must pay for that privilege and not expect me to provide your health care when you suddenly need it in an emergency room.

      If you don't want to accept that state granted privilege, then you can refuse it as a few million Americans already do now. In that case you don't need to buy health insurance, or pay for Medicare. Call your local IRS office to find out how to remove those Medicare payments from you paycheck, if you haven't already. Once you have done that, it should be easy to avoid paying anything for health insurance that you don't want or need.

    • Lang,

      There ARE religious conscience exceptions. Look under "RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS" about half way down this page:

      If you are a member of a sect that chooses to do their health case with prayer, then you are exempt, you do not pay the fine (and you get no scientific based medical care). Christian Scientists, Amish, Hutterites, and perhaps a few others already do not pay anything for medicare for this same reason. I'm sure there will be some court cases, though, when someone decides to become a Christian Scientist next year, and then tries to get treatment in an emergency room a year later.

    • Obama Plays Race Card, Calls on Churches to Support Campaign...

      Launches 'African Americans for Obama'...'

    • <<If your beliefs require you to simply chose prayer, you are not required to buy insurance.>>

      Hi, VT. I think this is an overstatement. You either buy the government-mandated insurance policies or you pay a $2,500 fine to opt out. There aren't any exceptions.

      Also, as you may know, the government does not permit parents of certain extreme religious sects to deny their children professional medical care. Nobody will be able to opt out of the plan by joining a snake-handling sect.

      I think the opponents are going to attack Obama care for its COERCIVE aspect more on the healthcare providers than on the healthcare consumers. The government is telling the healthcare providers that they MUST accept patients on a government fee schedule, which is probably an unconsitutional price control.

      I know you're going to come right back and deny that there's any coercion of healthcare providers to accept the government-mandated price controls. If you think about making that response I'd suggest you read the healthcare bill before you do so.

      I'll go out on a limb and say that it will be invalidated by a 5-4 margin. After all, these are the same justics who ruled that government suppression of free speech in political campaigns is illegal. The "Citizens vs. United" ruling threw 30 years of bogus political coercion out the door. The odds don't look much better for medical billing coercion, IMO

    • > Wrong. You only had to do it if conscripted.

      That's what I said. Just all able-bodied, while males between 18 and 45 years old were conscripted.

      With health care, you are only required to buy insurance if you intend to treat health problems with medicine and science-based medical procedures. If your beliefs require you to simply chose prayer, you are not required to buy insurance.

      In one case (health insurance) it is your choice. In the other case (military conscription) it is not your choice, unless you wish to shoot yourself in the foot.

      In the past, it was deemed to be Constitutionally acceptable to require some people to buy certain products, although we've changed and now collect taxes to buy those same products.

      We'll soon see what the SC says. Will we require people to buy a product (health insurance), or will we collect taxes to assure that all have heat care? The Supreme Court will now make that decision.

    • It seems we still can't find anything that equals what the new health care law will require. It will be an interesting SCOTUS decision to be made.

    • Wrong. You only had to do it if conscripted. Once conscripted you were part of a state/federal organization. Once made a member of that you were required to pony up and get a gun. This law, while close, still does not match the healthcare mandate (commerce clause vs. militia clause)

      How many other posters here have had the federal gov't make you purchase a weapon after being conscripted into the militia?

      I also note it was repealed. Maybe that's why the feds have not made me buy a gun yet or conscript me into the militia.

    • And it also says,

      "And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid"

      Everyone who meets the requirements of being a white, able-bodied male between 18 and 45 was to be enrolled and had to buy that equipment.

      Whether I, myself, need to buy a gun now is not what is important. (But the answer is no, I don't need to buy a gun under this federal law because I am over 45 years old).

      What is significant is that our founding fathers though at that time (1792) that it was perfectly acceptable to have their government, under the Constitution that they wrote, to require citizens to purchase a collection of commercial products.

    • You are intentionally leaving out the other text that states a 'captain' or 'commander' has to place you in the militia.

      Once again...have the feds forced you to buy a gun? Yes or's an easy question to answer.

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