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ImmunoCellular Therapeutics, Ltd. Message Board

  • nickdidomenico nickdidomenico Jun 4, 2013 2:57 PM Flag

    Plenty of talk about the stats but little about the science.

    anyone care to chime in on the science?

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    • Not a bad idea. I think the people modeling like myself are tired talking about it too. I've been talking about 32 deaths since last March, fifteen months ago. I have been wanting to talk about comparing a specific antigen target approach like we have to a crude tumor lysate approach and give a hypothesis about what I might expect to see.

    • talk to any of the 8 phase I patients that are cancer free and ask them if the technology works. There's been nothing with as much hope as this for GBM in history

    • if ict fails, the reason can be found below, from the discussion section of ph I results - If this works, the paper does not explain why. imo - This is fact, a clinical response but no documented t-cell data , (production of cd4 + cd8 killer t cells) , the phrase "inhibition of effector cells ( t cells) at the tumor site" should not be overlooked. -

      Our analysis did not reveal significant correlations of vaccine-associated type I cytokine levels within survival metrics, as in previous brain tumor vaccine trials. Although it is possible that with further follow-up some of these metrics may yet reach significance, this continues a predominant trend of poor correlation of immune and survival metrics in cancer vaccine trials. This may be due to inaccurate determination of clinically relevant immune responder status by ex vivo assays, but could also reflect local inhibition of peripherally activated immune effectors at the tumor site

      • 4 Replies to daweasl652
      • Very nice daweasl- "This is fact, a clinical response but no documented t-cell data , (production of cd4 + cd8 killer t cells) , the phrase "inhibition of effector cells ( t cells) at the tumor site" should not be overlooked."

        I couldn't agree more.

        I would also worry about the delayed effect of immune therapies and the indication choice.

      • disco,

        I googled tumor lysate to read up a little. The abstract I found , well, I've only read a small part of it and my attempts to cast doubt on ICT have been destroyed, bigtime. lol - A CD8 t-cell response. Game over.


      • Yeah, I have actually been wanting to talk about a general comparison between a multiple specific antigen targeted approach like what we have and a crude tumor lysate. I don't have time yet today to write about it, but I think it explains what you are concerned about and why that correlation doesn't hold with the approach that we are using. I'll get to it later. GL.

      • Agree with what you mentioned above however the paper also says:

        Multiple epitopes targeted by our vaccine are derived from proteins reported to be overexpressed on the cancer stem cell fraction of GBM. Moreover, loss of targeted antigen reportedly correlates with glioma vaccine efficacy. Consistent with those findings, we observed a downregulation of three of the HLA-A2 target antigens was observed in four HLA-A2+ patients where recurrent tumors were available. We also examined loss of expression of CD133, a non-targeted antigen expressed on the stem cell fraction in gliomas, to evaluate whether stem-like glioma cells might be selectively targeted by the vaccine. Although only a few patients were studied, tumors from post-vaccine resections showed a decrease in or loss of CD133 expression relative to their pre-vaccine counterparts. This finding is intriguing because previous studies from our group and others have consistently shown increased expression of CD133 in recurrent tumors.

    • When the event occurs is the only thing that matters so they talk about it. Its not even worth trying to talk about other things, a few here have tried. About 10 mins later, someone that hasn’t been on the board 2 weeks comes up and asks when the interim is coming. And it doesn’t make sense to me anyway, because if the interim is any good then the stock will take off and you’d want to hold for awhile longer, but whatever.

      Besides that there isn’t really any negative aspects posted about this stock that is a little concerning. And I’m not talking about a troll or frustrated trader just coming out with nonsense or a person with an agenda, but someone with a serious concern with the stock so people aren’t blindsided if something comes up.

      As for the science, dendritic cells therapy has been around for a while and is proven, applying it to gbm shouldn’t be awe-inspiring. If you people want to talk about antigens and the patented manufacturing process be my guest, but when’s the bodycount going to trigger the interim is all everyone talks about.

      Im not into stats, more fundies and told a lot of people months ago doing that stats stuff you couldn’t predict it accurately but whatever, if they like it and it adds conversation to the board- eh its allll good. Once in awhile I ask a generic question like where can I find this or that so others that don’t know can find info easily, but yeah I just got tired of the bodycount posts and research other stocks now.

    • I'd start with 2012's ASCO abstracts of "Correlation of survival with tumor antigen expression in patients with newly diagnosed glioblastoma receiving a multi-epitope pulsed dendritic cell vaccine" (Abstract #2087), AND, A randomized, double‑blind, controlled phase IIb study of the safety and efficacy of ICT‑107 in newly diagnosed patients with glioblastoma multiforme following resection and chemoradiation. (Abstract #TPS2107)

      Sentiment: Strong Buy

    • In the end, the stats ARE the science. Especially when you're talking about cancer and OS. The rest is mainly theory.

      If I had a buck for every biotech with cool and promising science...

      That said, the science of DC's, antigen-loading, and particularly of cancer stem cells is red hot and full of hope. Nothing wrong with that.

      Sentiment: Strong Buy

      • 1 Reply to rul6t2
      • "That said, the science of DC's, antigen-loading, and particularly of cancer stem cells is red hot and full of hope."

        While I agree with this, I think there is more "hope" with stem cells and a bit more realistic science behind DC's... at least currently. I have read way to many pre-trials that use DC's that show a clinical response for it to be based on "hope".

        I think the current problem with DC cells and IMUC and NWBO in particular and share price, is from a few years ago with a company called Genitope Corporation and another company which I can't remember at the moment. Both were going after B-cell non-Hodgkin's lymphoma using Immunotherapy (but were different than what IMUC and NWBO are doing). Both had high hopes, both failed and are now bankrupt.

        I think the investment community (including myself) is waiting for "results" before buying into the technology given the history.

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