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Ballard Power Systems Inc. Message Board

  • hyperbole2000 hyperbole2000 Nov 11, 2002 4:58 PM Flag

    life cycle analysis: petro vs hydrogren

    Is anyone aware of life cycle analysis of gasoline vs hydrogen as mobile fuel for transportation vehicles. For the comparison analysis, the final product should be a wholesalers large volume storage facility before distibution to retailers.

    Oil requires drilling thousands of feet, collection at surface, storage and/or pumpng to crude oii treansportation node, transport of crude to refinery, cracking of crude into fuel, pumping/storage to/at wholesellers tanks.

    Hydrogen requires pumping sea water into hydrogen generating plant, electrolysis, pumping/storage to/at wholesellers tanks.

    Other than the power for distillation vs electrolyis there is a polethora of other considerations such as waste management, R&D for source supply, benifits of manufacturing by-products heavier/lighter hydrocarbons vs potable water.
    Gut tells me hydrogen would win hands down if the oil indusrty was not the benificiary of the centalized managemnt tool of un-american competetion destroying corporate welfare subsidies.

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    • <it is an energy distribution medium.>

      EXACTLY.

      Fire up the nukes and generate some auto fuel.

      Just crusing down the road to Pasedena!!!!!

    • "Actually, I'm not. I don't have an axe to grind with Ballard. But I do think that folks need to be a little more realistic about the so called hydrogen economy."

      Hey! Thanks for the tip! What a guy! What a sterling fellow! Well, that certainly changes my opinion of you.You just can't buy that kind of insight matched with altruism. . . or can you?

    • < < That comes out to about $12,000 per POUND! > >

      Damn, nearly as expensive as a fuel cell. And that doesn't include the untold billions that NASA spent on the design and problem fixing. In the 70's rumor was that anything scientific was cancelled and the money spent solving problems. That's why NASA was sending high school experiments into space. And now the variable cost to blow up the shuttle is only one half billion. See, if you spend money you can drive down the cost.

      Regards

      Bill

    • feets_dont_failme_now feets_dont_failme_now Nov 12, 2002 11:53 AM Flag

      "...I think we will see change in terms of energy sources..."

      Sooner or later, we obviously will. But H2 is not an energy source, it is an energy distribution medium.

      The energy to produce the H2 in significant quantity has to come from somewhere.

    • I think we will see change in terms of energy sources , The fifty/sixty good ole boys generation will start to see the light or the lack of it through global warming . How much dumber could you look than driving around in a SUV , saying why should we change?.....just my thoughts.........

    • You read but do not interpret. My comments pertain to the manufacture, handling and storage up to the the point of the wholeasalers facility. Of course there will be a step down in pressure when they go the retail level.

      There were probably cynics like you 50 years ago who poo pooed the idea of 500 Kv distribution.

    • feets_dont_failme_now feets_dont_failme_now Nov 12, 2002 11:31 AM Flag

      You aren't suggesting that I might be SHORT are you? :)

      Actually, I'm not. I don't have an axe to grind with Ballard. But I do think that folks need to be a little more realistic about the so called hydrogen economy. It is not going to happen anytime soon and it is not going to happen at all until the source of the energy to drive it gets straightened out.

    • Have you covered yet ? or can you afford to bleed a little more?............cheers

    • hyper:

      You need to check your gut again.

      If H2 were cheaper we would be using it now.
      If it were anywhere near as easy as you seem to think it is we would be using it now.

      Just a few examples:
      1. Do you really think you are going to use raw seawater for electrolysis?

      2. You do not pump H2, you compress it. Orders of magnitude more expensive.

      3. Where does the electricity come from for electrolysis?

      Thermodynamics is thermodynamics. It is going to take significantly more energy to use H2 as a power distribution medium. At such time as there is technology that makes the cost of this extra energy mute a real H2 economy might take off. Until then it is a pipe dream.

      • 1 Reply to feets_dont_failme_now
      • STP, STP, STP.

        When you compress hydrogen it bcomes a liquid and liquids are pumped. Acknowledged at very high pressure but still pumped.

        Where does the power come from for electrolyis. From the same place that the cracking towers get their power from.

        The 3rd law of dynamics states that the more you try to organize something the stonger its desire to become disorganized becomes.

        The system required to get gasoline into the whole sellers tanks appears to require much more organization than for hydrogen.

        Your myopic focus on one component of the overall system makes your premise false and your agruement invalid.

 
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