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  • raybans2 raybans2 Nov 29, 2012 2:06 PM Flag

    Fiscal Cliff

    The argument has never been over whether these social programs would be a good thing or not. The argument has been over who will share the burden of paying for them. And there seems to be a huge disconnect in terms of the awareness of how much money there is in taxable individual income and who is making most of it. And their also seems to be a huge disconnect on exactly where the money is going which is not where most of us would have expected nor does it set well with most people, unless of course you are one of the government employees who is ecstatic over their benefits, pension and the wonderful life they will live all at our expense but not a life we ourselves can share yet we pay for it.

    I encourage everyone to do the following search and self educate one’s self on this topic as it seems that if you just tell it to people they assume you are making it up. We all need to be aware of the facts.

    Do a google search for: US tax revenues by income level IRS

    The first link is an IRS stat page for the US government. Go there and then click the link titled “Individual Income Tax” in the “Individual tax statistics” section. Then in the statistical tables area click the link “by size of adjusted gross income.” Then under “All returns: selected income and tax items” click 2009. There are other interesting tables on this page as well. You will need to have Microsoft excel installed as that is the format of the file.

    What you will see is that out of the $7.6 trillion in individual income that only about $2 trillion is made from people who make $200k or more and $1 trillion by people making $500k or more. $6 trillion is made by those who make $50k or more which means that those who make between 50k and 200k account for about $4 trillion in income. Keep in mind that those in the upper income brackets are already paying proportionally more and that any tax increases that are on the table are on the other of 5%. 5% of $2 trillion is $100 billion. Let’s get serious. That’s chump change relative to the $3.6 trillion we spend. It solves nothing. To Obama $100 billion is pocket change.

    Let’s leave the people who make $50k or less out of the discussion. Just how are you going to get $3.6 trillion dollars out of the $6 billion remaining without wiping out the economy? The fact is that we are spending more than our economy can bear. The only reason we are getting away with it now is because we are borrowing the money. The other sources of revenue outside of income tax don't amount to much.

    I seriously wish that people would go to the IRS web page and self educate themselves in the numbers so they can understand the unreasonableness of what they are asking. It is no wonder when you see anchormen go out on the street and interview the people who vote for this stuff that they seem to know next to nothing about these kinds of things. They don’t understand what they are asking for. In my opinion, anyone who has not gone to the IRS web page and made themselves aware of the facts doesn’t have the knowledge to constructively participate any discussion about the US budget. They simply don’t know enough to have an opinion that matters and they are wasting everyone’s time that they talk to. And worse, they are misinforming those around them to be as ill advised as themselves. But then that is typical from what I have seen. And the sad truth is, education level doesn’t seem to mean anything in this regard. It’s frustrating when you think about it too much. That is, all the people going around saying things about what should and should not be with little understanding of what the resulting implications are. If you think about it too much it will drive you crazy.

    The simple fact is that if we want to spend this much we will all have to pay for it. We can spend 50% more than we take in unless most of us pay 50% more in taxes because there are not enough rich people to make up the difference unless you take 100% of what they make and then they will just move to Singapore and you will get 0%.

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    • I dont know where you cut and pasted that out of, but no amount of propaganda is going to fool smart middle income people into paying more taxes and getting less benefits while high income people are given a pass.

      No amount of verbal acrobatics is going to sell your bill of goods. Even most high income people agree that our taxes must go up no less than mere mortals.

      • 2 Replies to hgff101
      • hgff101
        Where do you see (propaganda) anything about the middle class being fooled into paying more taxes and getting less benefits in the above post, from raybans2 ? The middle class or the rich does not qualify for any of the benefits. I also think that you did not search and self educate yourself on this topic as per rayban2's well written post.

        Sentiment: Hold

      • I challenge you to go to the IRS stat page and see if you can come up with a balanced budget solution that does not include large cuts. All the data is there and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to come to same realization that most anyone who has gone there comes to. We are spending too much. But then if you rather not understand the facts then don't go there. Based on some of your previous comments I'm convinced that you will not like what you discover. So maybe you will be happier if you don’t. It's your choice to make.

        I ask you this. When a person understands the truth and then continues to keep saying things that contradict the facts, what does that make him? Maybe you are better not to go there. It's much easier to have a clear conscious when you don't know what you are saying isn't true. But then, that assumes that someone has a conscious. Many are so invested in their ideology that they simply don't care. They would rather jump off a cliff.

        And may are so selfish that they would rather crash the entire economy so long as they get theirs. And most people that fit the last category have convinced themselves that this could never happen even though they haven’t a clue if it could or could not because imagining that it can't suits them emotionally. Even with all that is going on around the world today it’s not enough to get them to take notice. And that’s basically because they don’t want to know if they don't like what it says.

    • I ponder those who want to excuse high income people from commensurate taxation because itssupposedly 'chump change' while focusing on and going after, for instance, Public Broadcasting, which is nothing at all.

      The same people talk with great sympathy about how hard it is to maintain a luxury lifestyle at $250k/yr while being delusionally envious of the imagined luxurious lifestyles of people who eake out their existence in slums.

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