Please read the excellent link provided below, courtesy of the legendary dizzycoffee2000 (Hi, Marjorie!:-)), and think to yourself whether or not your ultra liberal policies have any chance of ever working with those who wish to destroy you and your loved ones (this is about YOUR life now, not mine, so take it more seriously):
Thanks for the link, DSY. I already read it when Dizzy first posted it.
By labelling me 'ultra liberal', I have to let you know that you have me wrong. I wish there were some other voices from Israel on this board, I would like to get a better sense of what the moderates are thinking. I realize that you are the wrong person to go to for such information.
Tell you what, I will stop responding to your posts, and you can keep your word about having made your last post to me, deal?
In the mean time, as I have done since last november, I will continue to read all that is posted here, and contribute myself when moved to do so.
I realize that there are elements in the muslim world that are bent on destroying civilization as we know it, including myself and my loved ones, and of course, Israel....precisely why I am so frustrated with Israeli and U.S. policies. Sounds like you are too, but for a radically different reason.
Ukkie, I think you represent the attitudes of a number of Americans, not the majority to be sure, but enough of the supposed middle that your views are important.
First, like most Americans, you are woefully undereducated about the history of the middle east from the formation of Israel through to the present time. It is very hard to condense it but simply put, Israel is a legitimate state. It was recognized as such by a vote of the United Nations and it has fought for, purchased, reclaimed from swampland, and developed the land it has in the exact same way every other country, including ours, was formed and has fixed its borders. The Arabs living on the land were not part of any Palistinian nation that the Jews usurped. The ones who fled their homes in the Independence War in 1948 did so mainly at the urging of the neighboring Arab states. About the same number of Jews were displaced from Arab countries at the same time. The Jews were quickly assimilated into Israel and the Arabs that left Israel have not ever been accepted into the surrounding Arab countries. They have been been killed, cheated and subjugated by their Arab country hosts since then while the Arabs living in Israel have more democratic rights than in any Arab country in the World.
Many Americans don't bother to really inform themselves and would prefer the whole thing to just stop... "You kids quit fighting, I don't care who started it!" The big problem is that it matters very much who is right and can't we all get along solutions pathetically misunderstands the nature of the enemy.
I say the enemy because Israel's enemies are the precisely the same enemies America, and the Western civilization has and that is Militant Extremist Islam... Militant Muslims or Radical Islam... the Saudi Arabian, Iranian brand of radical Islam.
The real danger is that most Americans, even after 9/11, don't appreciate what they are facing. We would like to believe everybody is good at heart and basically the same and peace loving. Take a look at the vitriol that comes out of the Arab world.
"I wish there were some other voices from Israel on this board, I would like to get a better sense of what the moderates are thinking"
Ukkie, I have to dissapoint you that there aren't any moderate Israeli's left. I do not mean the so-called liberal politicians who get EU funding to express their pro-Arab views.
There are quite a lot of Israeli's who elected the late Yitzhak Rabin beleiving that Israel can and should take a calculated risk, and try to reach a solution by means of negotiations.
They gave him that chanse, and they gave Barak another chanse, but now pretty much everyone understands that further talks are without merit, and Mr. Peres has made a joke of himself.
There can be no peace until both sides want peace so bad, they will require nothing in exchange. There will not be land for peace, there will be only peace for peace, land for land, and sadly, war for war.
Finally, i strongly recommend all of you to watch FixNews if you want to get an objective prespective on the Midle East and many other issues.
As l_ukkie stated, "I said 1967, as, from my 'education', I understand is an idea supported by at least 50% of the Israeli population, the US, and virtually the rest of the world. Funny, nobody here much likes to talk about borders. When I mentioned moral superiority, I was referring to DSY claiming that Israel's military was morally superior to any other in the history of the world. I don't agree. Simple."
1967 Borders? Oh, you mean the Saudi plan...Has the U.S. stated that Israel needs to withdraw to 67 borders? I really wonder if more than 50% of Israelis back that idea...considering that it would leave Israel(as in 1967) extremely vulnerable to attack. Back to an extremely narrow stip of land in places and of course our Arab friends have better(& more) weapons (and more money from Europe, Saudi A., Iran, Syria, Iraq, and anyone else)...Yeah, that should get the job done. And they will be very satisfied with their 67 borders...RIGHT....I think you're living in a dream world...maybe if we all pray asking for the Arab culture to become tolerant, peaceful people it will happen overnight...keep on dreaming...you have a right to, but it's not reality today.
By the way, what countries military has proven itself to be morally superior to Israel? None I can think of.