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BIOLASE, Inc. Message Board

  • mississippijohnhurt mississippijohnhurt Dec 29, 2003 10:46 PM Flag

    Remarks on competition

    I am interested to hear from anyone that can quantify the competitive threat. Is there a less expensive laser available? Is there a more effective laser available.
    I am searching for any significant weakness in the BLTI story and have yet to find anything.

    And one other things to all longs....please, please stop replying to these shallow shorts. Unless a credible contrary opinion is presented can't you please refrain from letting the shorts suck you into an fight. The back and forth bullshit gives the shorts exactly what they want, negativity on what should remain an extremely positive board. The short's vacuous claims are like terrorist's threats.

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    • From what I know, there is no competition AT ALL... aside from the traditional turbine drill. BLTI's only struggle is in gaining acceptance for it's disruptive and groundbreaking technology.

      In fact, one reason why BLTI's stock price is depressed is because so many others have tried and failed at this endeavor... the general investing public has yet to really believe BLTI has done what so many others have tried to do, and failed.

      I agree something has to be done to temper the whining by so many longs on this list. Every time a short pops his head, 10 longs start bitching like cranky old women.

    • Hope I spell these right.
      Hoya and Lumus are BLTI's main competitors.
      Hoya is a private European company I believe.
      Lumus is public LUME but very diversified in the laser industry and struggling financially.
      Waterlase is supierior to the others in most dentists opinions. I can say this because we have seen posts from Dental Town, about what most dentists opinions are between the 3 lasers. Waterlase is the most expensive, but Biolase sells 80% of dental lasers around the world. More dentists are interested in laser dentistry now because of Waterlase technology
      that wasn't available in the past.
      I suggest that you go into Google and check out the other 2 companies that I mentioned to help form your own picture.

    • Competition: Our principal competitors in the U.S. market are Lumenis and Contimuum Biomedical (part of Hoya).
      Nd:YAG performed poorly in hard tissue Early 90's laser
      (erbium) for hard tissue, (homium) for soft
      The Nd:YAG is a pulsed laser ray, more suitable for practitioners with a slower technique; whereas the diode's continuous beam calls for faster work
      ADT hard tissue laser CaviLase - erbium laser $29,995
      ADT soft tissue lasers - Nd:YAG (about $20,000) diode ($9,995).
      Biolitec, SmilePro 980 diode laser ($25,000) allows dentists to adjust the beam from a continuous setting to a pulsating action in intervals anywhere from one-tenth to one-hundredth of a second
      Continuum's director of dental marketing, says the firm expects that the FDA will soon clear its DioDent diode laser, which will sell for under $15,000.
      LUME OpusDent Opus 20 (about $49,000). two lasers, an erbium for hard tissue and a carbon dioxide for soft tissue housed in a single package.
      Dr. Craig Gimbel is at work on a single laser that can provide both erbium and homium wavelengths, $30,000 to $35,000
      MILLENNIUM DENTAL TECHNOLOGIES, INC FDA approval 1/22/03 sells for $45k The PerioLase(R) MVP-7 is a TruePulse(TM) free-running, neodymium yttrium aluminum garnet (FR) Nd:YAG. The PerioLase(R) is the only laser in the dental marketplace with Multi-Variable Pulse(TM) (MVP(TM)). MVP(TM) requires digital electronics and allows the operator to change between 7 discrete pulse durations. Pulse durations known as "free-running" are measured in the millionths (10(-6)) of a second. Private company, only doing gum disease, had approval in 2001 but only manufacturing approval in 2002. Machine costs same as Biolase and does less. Question is whether it is better at its specific ap than Biolase
      Er:YAG, a laser material that emits at 2.94 �m used in dermatology and plastic surgery, adapted to dentistry
      The crucial differences between the technologies are the level of water absorption at the lasing wavelength and the tissue penetration depth of the laser light. According to Jones, water has a higher absorption at the Er:YAG lasing wavelength than YSGG. "Er:YAG has a penetration depth of about 1 �m, whereas YSGG is between 3-5 �m, and this makes a difference in how it works. If the laser light gets stopped too quickly by tissue containing water, you get zero penetration and you are going to bleed," he said.

    • thanks for the info.
      who is biggest competitor and do you think that the 2.5 mill will be used to raise cash to buy them? LUME?

    • The competition? Someone has brought up Kavo, Fotona & Deka. In the US these companies do zip. They do no marketing and ask any none laser dentist if they have everheard of Fotona and Deka. They have not. KaVo makes many high end dental products but very few know they have a hard tissue laser.
      In hard tissue lasers in the states we have Biolase, Opus and Hoya/Conbio. If you pick up a dental journal these are the only three companies that you will see. It has only been in the last year that Opus and Hoya have marketed.
      Not to rain on anyones parade but in the hands of a trained laser dentist they can utilize each of these three lasers equally. There are difference between the units and it comes down to personnel preferences.
      What stands out with Biolase is they Market. They also have a great user support group. They have also finialy realized the educating the dentist as to what lasers can do is egual sales. It is rumored that Biolase is going to do a big push in 2004 in educating dentist on the uses of Lasers. ( This is a rumor and I do not know it as a fact--which means I did not hear it from Bilose )
      Competition is not the factor that holds biolase sales down. It is the dentist. Until a dentist sees a drop in production he will not change how he does his production,until he is educated as to what lasers will and will not do he will not buy a laser. Before the average dentist buys a laser it must be proven to him that it really works and is not a boondoggle.

      Have a good day.


      Seems that's a Biolase product(forget Prague, not relevant)....The problem with just going to Google and copying a bunch of names.


    • ltrypsin wrote a good reply. There's a huge difference between US market and international market. In the US I would guess ConBio is the competitor in second position but they do not make any numbers public so nobody knows for sure. If I recall correctly BLTI management once stated sales were like 5/1 or 6/1 BLTI/Conbio at that time. Lume is stagnant and just recently Deka started growing its dental sales nicely (internationally though). Deka has formed its own US division but I would expect them to obtain a license from Biolase before selling (trying to sell) in this market. Maybe talks are on hold until things are sorted out in this field. Also I would guess that they are the party who was supposed to pay a part of BLTI's German factory since they (Deka) also are the ones who bought Zeiss Meditec's (former Asclepion) dental laser division. You might remember Asclepion is the company which BLTI bought the German laser facility from. Who else could have had any interest in obtaining a license from Biolase? But again, that's my personal guess only. FWIW. Ah, and I don't see BLTI buy a competitor. IMO they don't have anything to offer that could add to BLTI's portfolio in a meaningful way. Maybe they could gobble up LUME's dental division (although during one of the last conference calls LUME management stated dental lasers did belong to their core business and they didn't want to sell it) should these guys (new CEO!) have changed their minds in the meantime. Should that indeed happen, BLTI wouldn't have to pay much. In any event they could have done it without an offering. I believe the money is for something else.


    • Premier Laser got an approval and crap load of publicity in 1996 for its Centauri laser or whatever they called it, Katie Couric gushing over the thing on NBC and all that jazz. Stock shot up from 3 or 4 to 16 overnight practically, and then it was all downhill from there straight to bankruptcy.

      BioLase stock rose some on the coattails of this news as its then un-approved "Millenium" was an up an coming competitor -- and look who is still around. Of course there is about 5 years between where BioLase stock did little.

      I have always thought the name change was to shed an old sounding name once 2000 rolled around, but I have no idea why the name changed.

      Anyone thinking Millenium is BioLase competition is a dope.


    • Amiga has me on ignore, so Robert might have to pass this answer on.

      According to Amiga, I make to much noise defending BLTI against Pkew. Amiga's answer to lies etc about the stock are to ignore them, "they will go away". I believe for the benefit of newbies, its best to confront lies and misinformation.

      Amiga not wrong very often but he is wrong in that post. 1. Diodem purchased premier patents. Premier produced and sold hard tissue lasers and premiers patents IMO infringe on
      AMT's patents. BLTI purchased AMT's patents. By deduction diodem infringed on BLTI's patents. The filing of a patent that infringes on another patent is infringement, to collect damages for infringement may require actual production and sale of the product ( with the exception of damages for the cost of attorney fee's)

      2. ConBIO is Hoya, opus is LUME both use AMT's patents. Kavo produces a diagnosic only laser, and their are rumors about a hard tissue laser sold in south America or will be sold in the future and other rumors kavo uses a Rusian laser, don't have the time to check it out. Don't know if the Deka or fotona use the AMT patents but the Millennium amiga list as a soft tissue laser is a hard tissue lasser and I believe also pays a royalty to BLTI.

      I found this today, you might be interested!!

      At this time(1999), the key patents are held by American Dental Technologies, BioLase Technology and Premier Laser Systems. ADT holds the fundamental patents on use of Nd:YAG and erbium lasers for dentistry. Patent No. 4,818,230 covers Nd:YAG for hard and soft tissue. It was issued in 1989 to the Myers brothers, who founded ADT.

      ADT also owns patent Nos. 5,342,198 and 5,257,935, which cover the use of mid-infrared lasers (erbium) for hard-tissue dentistry. These patents were issued to the founder of Sunrise Technologies (former supplier of lasers to ADT) and the Myers brothers as a result of collaborative work that led to the first filing with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office in 1988. Lengthy litigation occurred between ADT and Sunrise for several years until a settlement was reached that gave ADT full rights to the patents.

    • Millineum is a company selling a nd:yag for perio procedures, not the od brand name for BLTI formr product.Kavo has an Er:yag that is sold in Europe an has started an aggressve campaign in Canada, they have applied for FDA approval in U.S. Kavo also sells alow cost diagonstic laser in the U.S.

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