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Energy Transfer Partners, L.P. Message Board

arbtrdr 293 posts  |  Last Activity: Jun 13, 2015 12:06 AM Member since: Oct 16, 2000
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  • arbtrdr arbtrdr Jun 13, 2015 12:06 AM Flag

    If we move to 2019 we have Semple retiring. That makes a buyout easier. Normalized interest rates and low NGL pricing might well hurt volumes starting in 2016. MWE having volume issues now in parts of SW. Also remember that the bigger the MKP the more it must grow to keep up. EPD now 5B just to grow at 5 percent. Kinder has same issue. We will see what happens. Ultimately I think more Kinder and Williams deals. Last when interest rates normalize MWE will pay about 2-3 percent more. Also painful part of MAPs

  • Reply to

    EPD. BUSINESS MODEL

    by arbtrdr Jun 10, 2015 9:09 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Jun 12, 2015 11:17 AM Flag

    EPD does nd legally cannot get involved in daily price moves. Right now anything and everything related to energy is being old. And yeah we all going to stop using NG and oil too.a

  • Reply to

    EPD. BUSINESS MODEL

    by arbtrdr Jun 10, 2015 9:09 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Jun 11, 2015 11:17 AM Flag

    My response was to say you whine every quarter about the distribution policy when EPD said they would reexamine yearly. As to ROI. My reference was to EPDs EF buy. You comnent was misplaced as it had nothing to do with me personally. Have you spoken with EPD? What did they say about distribution policy? As many have said here- retained earnings means for millions less new units and almost no secondaries.

  • EPD stated years ago they would reevaluate for distribution changes in July or August each year. OK? Next where is there and our money best used? Keep it for a return of some 15 percent compounded or pay more out? I get the short term frustration, but their retention of capital has eliminated the need for some 100,000,000 units to be missed. As to issuing units-they almost never have a secondary with new units mostly to existing bondholders at a discount. That benefits those that hang in. Today MLPs are out of favor.but my adjusted cost of under $1a unit is amazing. Right now EPD does not care much about short term price moves in the unit price.

  • Reply to

    All those complaining about stock price

    by no1matemary Jun 6, 2015 5:09 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Jun 9, 2015 9:35 AM Flag

    Am now more $from EF. acquisition.

  • Reply to

    GEL or not to GEL

    by nymarv10956 Apr 7, 2015 8:23 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 7, 2015 10:46 PM Flag

    MWE will not be sold for about 5 more years. That is sort of your time frame When Semple goes so does MWE at a probably very nice premium.

    Interesting comment on EPD. I would argue they are friendly by not issuing new units despite building billions on new projects in a controlled plan. They have created value in the unit price instead of distribution value. They also stated at a presentation that if we ever got into a fast rising interest rate environment that they would slow growth further and raise the CAGR. That one is an interesting thought. I bought my first shares of LEV in 1994 at $21. It split twice before becoming Gulf Terra at about 1.8 to 1 ratio and then EPD at the same ratio. Each original share is now some 50 units. You can figure out the cost per share I have. Have reinvested every distribution in both MWE and EPD.

  • Reply to

    GEL or not to GEL

    by nymarv10956 Apr 7, 2015 8:23 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 7, 2015 10:10 AM Flag

    Always remember that Semple said he would sacrifice the CAGR growth rate for the chance to make MWE larger. That grow at any cost idea of management will continue to drag MWE to lower unit pricing for another year or two IMO. I continue to wait but waving the flag that MWE plans are wonderful and perfect as is done by some if silly. Distributrion growth was promised and growth in the Marcellus was slower than thought - mistake #1 by MWE. Then it cost a fortune to buyout EMG - problem #2. Now NGL prices are close to breakeven and MWE has put off higher CAGR again. Semple has built a big company that can and will rebound after pricing move up, but MWE has been pretty dead money for two years. The only place I have come out is selling puts and covered calls.

  • arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 6, 2015 4:41 PM Flag

    Nothing different between AMPE and about 40 or 50 other pharma startups with no sales

  • arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 3, 2015 2:37 PM Flag

    It is mostly depreciation which needs to be recaptured when you sell. There is also a passive loss provision which often is close to the amount of the Box #1 loss. It is suspended until you sell and then get it as a reduction in income on the sale. Your capital account is sort of your assets in the company. A loss reduces your assets - does that make more sense. If you were active you could write off that loss yearly. Since it is passive income you need to wait until you sell to get that loss back.

  • Reply to

    Can EPD knock it out of the park

    by oceanseablu Mar 24, 2015 9:32 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 3, 2015 2:34 PM Flag

    The republicans suggested it! The idea proposed is a limit of $1M which does not effect most people on capital gains. The home stepup is already limited. Hard to argue against taxing capital gains of over a million bucks! Combine that with a phase in over 5+ years and it will eventually pass.

  • Reply to

    etp

    by suketumaniar Jan 26, 2015 3:54 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 2, 2015 10:45 AM Flag

    bluck - ETE is not a c corp and neither is ETP who is acquiring RGP. Your sarcasm is vented incorrectly. There is no recapture here. As for lawsuits - no have actually gone to more than a filing to certify. Almost every buyout has one or more today - truly sad.

    you r correct that ETE does own shares in RGP, but so does EROC - so what. RGP has had issues with growth of DCF and this should improve things a bit. U also knew or should have known that RGP was going to get bought out after all the discussion over the last 2 years. you are smarter than that!

  • Reply to

    Bait and Switch?

    by samerine2001 Apr 1, 2015 1:44 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Apr 1, 2015 4:27 PM Flag

    The change is in the structure so the RGP is kept as a subsidiary company that save $$ tax wise.

  • Reply to

    Presentation

    by racehorse9 Mar 24, 2015 11:32 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 31, 2015 7:45 PM Flag

    With nothing except continuing bad news on Geismer for over a year and declining NGL, NG and differentials one could expect nothing else. Presentation is on the WPZ website under presentations for the new WPZ. need to explore a bit to find it.

  • Reply to

    ETP State Taxes

    by fefadefaset Mar 30, 2015 10:16 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 31, 2015 10:54 AM Flag

    Yes - For me Colorado and Pennsylvania. How do you know if you owe? You simply look at the state numbers that are positive and positive of say at least $50/$100. As to finding information . . . is the state information not clear? Ordinary income is clearly listed in column #1 of the state schedule. You pay taxes on income, not taxes paid! As to knowing if you got to the amount needed to owe taxes, there is not central place our investor group has even found. The filing threshold varies greatly from $50 in PA to $1000 in OK and over $5000 in some others.

    What I ask is are any of the cumulative totals positive? I have no income (all negative) in any state for ETP. If the numbers are negative then of course you do not owe taxes.

  • Reply to

    Why

    by accountforthis64 Mar 30, 2015 6:00 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 30, 2015 6:51 PM Flag

    Almost all MLPs up today and on very low volume. Suggest trying to put much meaning in looking at daily moves is a fool's game. Interest rates move the markets on day, oil prices the next. Low oil prices are good for MMP yet it often moves down when oil drops.

  • Reply to

    Step up value and partnerships

    by jcotton15 Mar 24, 2015 3:33 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 28, 2015 5:57 PM Flag

    if you die what your beneficary does with the K-1s is no longer your problem! Seriously, would suggest something in your will directing that they be sold after notifying the company of the stepup in basis . Some clear directions on what to do.

  • Reply to

    Can EPD knock it out of the park

    by oceanseablu Mar 24, 2015 9:32 AM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 27, 2015 6:01 PM Flag

    morris and reroe - It is certainly important for any EPD buyer to read the MLP 101 primer at the National Association of Publicly Traded Partnerships BEFORE they buy. Understanding the tax consequences - especially selling all or none of a holding - is important. Short term buying and selling works usually OK, but there can be surprises on the K-1 if some sort of a deal is made and you are allocated $$.

    The only problem with the hold and die plan is Congress continues to look for more of our $$ and it is likely at some point in the future that the step up in basis on death will be limited.

  • Reply to

    Reason why ETP down...

    by mac94921 Mar 26, 2015 1:22 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 27, 2015 5:21 PM Flag

    What you are missing is being able to calculate your passive loss carryforward. On my taxes this year I calculated a loss carryforward that was approximately 75% of my Box 1 loss for regular taxes and a bit less for AMT taxes. Do not think you would want to miss that. The hard part of doing ETP is all of the other MLP information you need to enter from APU - large taxable income this year in boxes 1 and 9a - I note ETP did NOT have a box 9a gain. Seems you also have issues in that you need to file a K-1 data for EVERY MLP you own. The positives and negatives. This is needed to show the loss carryforward numbers and track the passive losses. like i said - I had thousands of dollars in passive loss carryforward dollars to offset my EPB sale.

    i agree with not using tax software, but how else can you get it correct? Bottom line is you cannot and if you post the Box 9a positive number from your K-1 that says "Don not use Partt II information - See Supplemental K-1 Information Statement' then you are likely to receive a tax bill. I spent 5 years learning to do taxes and 15 years preparing them. Simply cannot do a K-1 without one today.

    You cannot easily do your taxes on a complete sale to figure out your passive losses manually. It took me over 2 hours the one time I tried and I got it wrong. Understand you can do it any way you please, but hate to see someone pay too much in taxes and or penalties over fighting using a tax program. You cannot go back over several years and redo to figure your correct taxes manually without all of the old instructions, your old returns and K-1s and about 2 hours per tax year. easier and cheaper to spend a couple bucks and do it right the first time.

  • Reply to

    Reason why ETP down...

    by mac94921 Mar 26, 2015 1:22 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 27, 2015 2:39 PM Flag

    That advice is not correct today. You can offset line 9a gains only with losses carried forward on schedule D. You cannot combine a loss from one MLP with a gain from another. Doing a separate calculation outside of software is crazy and almost impossible. How the heck are you going to calculate the amount of 4797 gain passing thru to Schedule E? How about passive losses you can carry forward for both regular income and AMT? Locally the IRS did a workshop and agents and CPAs tried to calculate the passive loss carryforward for AMT and out of twenty some agents none were even close. You need to report Lines 1-10 whether positive or negative to get both income and deductions. Also some of the Line 13 and also line 17 and 18 numbers can give you deductions.

    Certainly hope you are using a software pack like TTax and have your passive loss carryforward numbers from the prior years. I offset almost $28K in income from EPB via my passive carryforward losses.

  • Reply to

    Down Side Risks

    by wgmaz Mar 26, 2015 1:09 PM
    arbtrdr arbtrdr Mar 27, 2015 2:31 PM Flag

    ETP has an oil pipe being built but it is 100% contracted for 10 years, thus no issue. The margin in NGLs has fallen and ethane is basically worth nothing. That will stay until LNG starts in 2016/17 ad the 6 large industrial plants start up on the GOM. Foreign demand is increasing by some 5% a year - along with the population and huge demand increases from Indonesia, India, Pakistan and other places with a growing middle class.

    Foreign demand for US LNG cannot decline. Reason is simple. Russia now charges $12 while in the US we pay under $3. We can deliver to Europe for about $6. Would France and Germany rather pay the US and a steady supply say $8 or Russia who has cut off the supply twice in the last 5 years almost 50% more?

    FWIW - The decline in prices also increases demand. For every 1% drop in price - demand goes up by about 1/4%.

ETP
51.20-0.22(-0.43%)Jul 31 4:06 PMEDT