"I'm learning more and more that your typical response is to duck any fact or info that is contrary to your political position or your world of hate."
The best lesson you can learn is to put that partisan nitwit on Ignore. Since I put him on Ignore as crumrod, he's been back as crumrod2 and crumrod4life. I wonder what kind of game he's playing. Maybe he's hoping people run out of Ignores. I've heard Yahoo limits the list to 100.
<<TD Bank Financial Group has also been named "Bank of the Year in Canada">>
I hope that impresses the Enron shareholders enough that they give TD a break on the settlement cost in the class-action suit. Just joking, of course. I actually think TD is a good and solid bank. My only concern is over the Enron liability. I just think all shareholders should be prepared for a big number so they aren't caught off guard like many CIBC shareholders were.
I don't think there's any deadline on when a bank can settle. No one expects any of the remaining defendants to take the case to court. I'm sure there will be more settlements coming. I hope TD decides to settle sooner than later because the cost isn't going to get cheaper as the October 2006 trial date approaches.
Yes, time will tell. But as others have noted, time is not on Toronto Dominion's side. If Merrill or one of the other remaining defendants settles before TD, the tab for TD will rise even more. I'd be as surprised (although pleasantly) by a $400 million settlement as you and the analysts would be by one above $2 billion.
After the $130 million mega-claims payout, TD currently has a little more than $400 million left in Enron reserves. Do you think that's going to cover the tab? I don't.
<<And who's email was it?>>
It was an e-mail from Cori Novellino to Robyn Zeller on Nov. 7, 2000. I have no idea whether they are principal players, but they are/were TD employees.
<<If you wait for the trial the real information will come out.>>
Do you really believe TD is going to take this to trial? I'd be very worried if it did because the final cost could be a lot more than a settlement.
<<I, and apparently the Bank, don't accept the examiners report as the absolute gospel.>>
Neither do I, but if you'd read any part of the report, you'd understand that there is evidence to suggest that reasonable people might conclude that TD is not totally innocent in this matter. Have you read the report?
<<It some times is a long voyage from heresay reporting in the newspapers to trial testimony.>>
I haven't posted any hearsay reporting. What I've posted has come from the court-appointed examiner's report. I don't think the plaintiff's lawyers had anything to do with leading the examiner in any direction. The report is an independent examination of the evidence. It is even balanced to the point that the examiner presents possible counter-arguments that TD might raise.
And what exactly is my panic advice? You're right, TD is maintaining a price near its all-time high. Here's what I've posted about TD's stock price: If TD should get back to 47 and then suffer the same 11% decline that CIBC did after its settlement, TD would only drop to about 42. I'm surprised that the Enron risk isn't being priced into the stock now. The CIBC settlement caught many shareholders by surprise. All I'm saying is that TD shareholders shouldn't be surprised if TD settles in the $2 billion range and the stock drops about 10%. Don't panic, just be informed and aware.
The reference in question was attributed to the report. How you misunderstood that as being anything but the examiner's opinion is beyond me. But it's interesting that you have ignored the actual fact in my post -- the cited e-mail that read, "We've been warned about the balance-sheet games at least twice in the last few months." Don't you think that puts Ed Clark's assertion that TD was an "innocent participant" in question?
Your smartass comments show how little you know about this case. The sentence you so foolishly mock is followed by this on Page 14 of the court-appointed examiner's report (which is linked below):
Many Toronto Dominion internal documents and communications contain references to such relationship pressure, including, for example: ... Enron has specifically asked that we participate in Project Hawaii as a quid pro quo for the UK Pre-paid. ... Our participation in this transaction is critical to our ability to win a mandate for a $400 million prepaid swap.
You probably think this all sounds like good business practice. What the examiner is saying is that TD became involved in shady deals so it could be "rewarded" with future business. In other words, you help us cook the books and we'll make it worth your while.
Yes, TD settled the mega-claims Enron suit, but it still faces a big bill in the class-action suit brought by Enron shareholders. Don't be fooled by those target prices. The analysts are going to have to lower them once TD settles the class-action.
"No one at TD did anything wrong." - Ed Clark
The court-appointed examiner's report found that TD participated in about 40 transactions with Enron totaling more than $3 billion between February 1997 and September 2001. As evidence of its claims, the report cites internal e-mails and other internal documents that show many deals with Enron were completed on a rush basis, sometimes in less than a week. One e-mail cited in the report read, "We've been warned about the balance-sheet games at least twice in the last few months." The report also says, "Often, Toronto Dominion participated in deals with the understanding that Enron would reward the bank with future business."
I've wondered the same thing. If TD should get back to 47 and then suffer the same 11% decline that CIBC did after its settlement, TD would only drop to about 42. I'm surprised that the Enron risk isn't being priced into the stock now.
The quote definitely is interesting. Clark seems to be conceding that TD is going to have to pay but won't concede that it may have done anything wrong. None of the banks that have settled have admitted any wrongdoing, but nobody thinks any of them are innocent. Maybe Clark should read the court-appointed examiner's report that details six prepay loan deals that TD made with Enron. And then when TD finally realized without a doubt that Enron was cooking the books, according to the examiner, it still closed two more deals because the fees it received were so lucrative. That doesn't sound like an innocent participant to me. The only issue that really matters, though, is how much TD is going to have to pay to settle its Enron liability. It still looks to me like the longer it waits the higher the bill will be.
My thoughts are that guesses by analysts are no more accurate than guesses by you and me. You might note that before CIBC settled for $2.4 billion, the analysts were expecting it would settle for about $750 million. TD has felt all along that it should not have to pay a huge settlement because it was not as involved in the Enron scam as some other banks. What TD has ignored is that the plaintiffs aren’t all that concerned about how involved a bank was. Under the law, any amount of involvement means you aided and abetted the fraud.
If TD had settled a year ago, I’d say it might have gotten off for $300 million or less. If it had settled before Citibank in June, maybe it would have paid only $750 million. But it decided to wait -- and time is not on its side in this case. The plaintiffs have said that their strategy is to win bigger and bigger settlements and that they would be kinder to those who came to the table first. TD has missed the boat and I’m guessing it is resisting now because the pricetag has grown to what it considers an unreasonable amount. The plaintiffs are in the driver’s seat. My guess is that TD is going to have to pay in the $2 billion range. Of course, if it waits for Merrill or someone else to settle first, it could be more than that. I sure hope I’m wrong. Time will tell how good my guess is. And then we can compare mine to Mr. Wessel’s.
I'm not sure it's onward and upward yet. Ed Clark might be a little too optimistic in his assessment that TD should be able to resolve the class-action suit for quite a small amount. As he said, "on the other hand...." Still, the news today is good, I think. It makes me think TD eventually will settle with the shareholders. I was afraid it was going to take the case to trial. I think that would have been a huge mistake.
That's only for the Enron "mega-claims" suit. TD still has to settle the class-action brought by the University of California and other shareholders. That settlement will be significantly more than today's amount. Ed Clark announced today that the bank has increased its litigation reserves by another $300 million.
Clark's statement: "Because there have been no settlements reached for the securities action with any of the less involved banks, it is difficult to know what reserves are prudent. It would be reasonable to argue, given the facts of our involvement in Enron, that we should be able to resolve any claim for quite a small
amount. On the other hand, given the uncertainties in this situation, it would seem prudent to increase our reserve.... The additional reserves taken this quarter can be absorbed without reducing capital from second-quarter levels."
So what exactly is your point? How does this change the evidence, including e-mails, gathered by the court-appointed examiner? Do you really think TD is going to avoid paying a big settlement or judgement in the Enron case? If the judge grants Lerach's Merrill Lynch motion (and I have no idea how big an if that is), CIBC's settlement might look like a bargain.
Ah, so now we know TD's defense strategy. It was OK for us to aid and abet Enron in its multi-billion-dollar scam because the lead lawyer in the class-action lawsuit may have given kickbacks to clients in former cases.
I hope that article is correct. But don't forget, the analysts were estimating that CIBC might have to pay $750,000 and it turned out to be $2.4 billion. Also, the plaintiffs say their strategy is to win bigger and bigger settlements. So far that's exactly what's happened. As someone said earlier, time will tell.
TD will release its third-quarter earnings on Thursday, Aug. 25. It was during the discussion of second-quarter earnings in May 2004 that Ed Clark made comments about the Enron litigation and TD's $300 million litigation reserve. I don't see how he can ignore the topic on Aug. 25 in light of the three recent Enron settlements in the $2 billion range. Obviously he can't comment on any ongoing negotiations in the class-action suit, but it will say a lot about how TD views the case if the reserves are left at $300 million.