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Herbalife Ltd. Message Board

cwn600 273 posts  |  Last Activity: Jul 25, 2014 12:53 PM Member since: Dec 28, 1999
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  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 25, 2014 12:53 PM Flag

    You still don't understand what's going on. But at least you're consistent.

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 25, 2014 12:52 PM Flag

    "I keep seeing this july 30th what is it?"

    That's when shareholders who bought AWRE from July 8th (too late to be a shareholder of record on the July 10 record date) through July 24th are supposed to receive the dividend. That's because all shares sold during that time were sold with due bills attached, obligating the sellers to forward the dividend to the buyers. The due bills are activated today and the process is supposed to conclude on July 30th.

  • Reply to


    by rokky44 Jul 24, 2014 4:58 PM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 24, 2014 8:10 PM Flag


    Not according to the vast horde of blockheads who refused to look up the rules for themselves. They're still in denial. But to be fair, it's to be expected that they wouldn't believe something they can't understand.

    "If i bought Geron Jan 2016 options in April ..."

    Do a google search for "CBOE Research Circular #RS14-390" and you'll see how the options were affected by the spinoff.

    Also do a google search for "Regulatory Circular RG14-116" (and include the quotation marks) to see what restrictions apply.


  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 7:52 PM Flag

    "If I do not sell before close of market on Tuesday, I will eventually receive the Asterias shares and BioTime warrants that are owed me. Right?"

    Yes. That's the only purpose of the ex-date -- to determine whether or not kpail gets the distribution.

    "See if you can make me regret I asked this question of clarification."

    Of course I can. I'm a tower of consistency, remember? Here goes: You can sell any time tomorrow, without waiting for Wednesday, and still get the Asterias shares. As for the warrants, that's a whole different deal.

    Say it with me, kpail: Buy before the ex-date and hold until the ex-date, get the distribution. Buy on or after the ex-date, don't get the distribution.

    Although I didn't hear you saying it with me, I saw your lips move when you read it, and that's probably good enough. It's only GERN, after all.

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 7:10 PM Flag

    "I am holding GERN shares today and plan to hold them through close of business tomorrow."

    Tightly in your fists or loosely between your knees?

    "How much longer than that must I hold these shares if the distribution date is weeks off?"

    Either sixteen months or until the open of trading on Wednesday, I'm not sure which. Or, if you realize that the company misstated that you have to hold through the ex-date, you could sell any time tomorrow and still get the Asterias shares ... either in sixteen months or within the next one to several weeks, I'm not sure which.

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 6:58 PM Flag

    "Does that mean holders as of record tomorrow morning or Wednesday morning"

    Neither. Technically, the answer is Thursday, but that's going to confuse the already confused even more.

    Gern worded this part wrong, by the way: "Geron stockholders as of the Record Date must hold their shares of Geron common stock through the Ex-Dividend Date."

    It should read "until the Ex-Dividend Date," not "through the Ex-Dividend Date." But is anyone really surprised GERN would screw up the wording in an SEC filing?

  • Reply to

    Do I qualify to get the asterias share

    by idiotsknow Jul 21, 2014 6:04 PM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 6:40 PM Flag

    Yes. What other purpose would you think the ex-date serves?

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 6:37 PM Flag

    "You make it sound as if GERON shareholders as of this morning will also receive Asterias."

    Well, let's see ... the ex-date is what determines who gets the distribution, anyone buying before the ex-date qualifying and anyone buying on or after the ex-date not qualifying, and the ex-date is tomorrow, so, what does it look like to you?

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 6:34 PM Flag

    "Looks like we made it into that 1% club."

    Yep, sure did. Leave it to GERN to be so unorganized that (c) was involked.

    "Is it your view that in addition to tomorrow's trading this now gives the shorts time to acquire shares in the when-issued market?"

    Yes, because shorts don't have to come up with Asterias shares until the distribution date, which, according to the company, is "expected to occur within the next one to several weeks."

    That assumes the when-issued market actually comes to be. With GERN it looks like nothing is very definite.

  • Reply to

    Finally !!

    by earfool Jul 21, 2014 3:56 PM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 4:45 PM Flag

    And the NASDAQ has applied section (c) of rule 11140, so the ex-date in this case is not the day after the distribution date, as GERN still hasn't declared the distribution date. Section (c) says,

    "(c) Late Information Re: Ex-Dividend, Ex-Warrants Dates
    If definitive information is not received sufficiently in advance of the record date to permit designation of an ex-dividend or ex-warrants date in accordance with paragraph (b)(1) hereof, the date designated shall be the first business day which, in the opinion of the Committee, shall be practical having regard to the circumstances pertaining. "

  • Reply to


    by kpail Jul 21, 2014 9:47 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 12:34 PM Flag

    "I have not received the spin-off shares yet"

    Of course not; they haven't been distributed. Getting a stock symbol is one of the many steps before a stock can be listed for trading and until Asterias begins trading, the spinoff shares will remain undistributed.

  • Reply to


    by kpail Jul 21, 2014 9:47 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 12:32 PM Flag

    "When do we get an ex-date"

    Not until the company declares a distribution date.

    "Where are you when we need you?"

    I'm unaware of ever having been needed, so the question is invalid.

    "Where are you when we don't?"

    Most often in the crawlspace under my house. It keeps me out of trouble. Sure, it's damp, dank, full of insects and rodent droppings, but so is this board, so there isn't really that much difference.

  • Reply to


    by dugas.daniel Jul 20, 2014 12:37 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 1:12 AM Flag

    "X-div date could be the 25th or 21st, or the 18th as one poster said."

    No, it can't. Stock exchange rules mandate that it will be August 4th.

    "If you buy or sell NE prior to the 23rd you sell/buy your right to PGN."

    From July 21 through August1st.

    "The x-date could be depended on the broker or what ever."

    Brokers don't have any say in when an ex-date will be.

    "IF you are hot to sell PGN, then sell the PGN-WI on the 23rd or 24th when they appear in your account"

    No when-issued shares are going to appear in anybody's account unless they specifically buy the when-issued shares after they start trading. When-issued shares are NOT what will be distributed.

    pismire, you obviously don't understand ANY aspect of the spinoff process. Your wild guesses aren't even close to the truth.

  • Reply to


    by dugas.daniel Jul 20, 2014 12:37 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 1:02 AM Flag

    On August 1st the company will in fact distribute the PGN shares to all shareholders of record as of July 23, so it is correct in saying that in their press releases. But the press release of July 11 notes that "Noble shareholders who sell their Noble ordinary shares in the "regular-way" market (that is, the normal trading market on the NYSE under the symbol "NE") prior to the distribution date will be selling their right to receive Paragon ordinary shares in the distribution." (That's actually not quite accurate, for sales ON the distribution date will also be selling the right to the PGN shares.)

    The company pays the distribution to shareholders of record because that's the only information they have on who to pay. But beginning on July 21st and continuing through August 1st, all NE shares will be trading with due bills attached that obligate the seller to forward the PGN shares to the buyer after they first land in the accounts of the shareholder of record as of July 23rd. The company doesn't announce that detail because it is the brokerage houses that execute the due bills. The company does not participate in the due bill process.

    So, on the distribution date of August 1st, the PGN shares first go to shareholders of record as of July 23. Then the due bill process is triggered, and any shareholder of record on July 23rd who sold their NE shares before the ex-date of August 4th will see the PGN shares removed from their accounts and forwarded to the rightful owners on the due bill settlement date, which is August 6th.

    This is the way most spinoffs are handled, as well as all cash distributions amounting to 25% or more of the underlying stock's trading price. It's nothing new.

  • Reply to


    by dugas.daniel Jul 20, 2014 12:37 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 21, 2014 12:52 AM Flag

    "Aug. 4th is not referenced in the press release"

    More often than not, ex-dates are not mentioned by the paying companies, so there's nothing unusual about that. After all, it's the exchange, not the company, that sets the ex-date, so it's not an obligation of the company to announce it.

    "what then is the significance of July 23rd, which is referenced?"

    July 23rd is the record date, and it has two points of significance, neither of which is to determine who gets the spinoff distribution. It is always the ex-date that determines who gets the distribution, not the record date. In cases of normal distributions, the record date establishes the ex-date by default, the ex-distribution date being two trading days before the record date. But in cases like the spinoff of PGN by NE, stock exchange rules mandate that the ex-date be the first trading day after the distribution date. That means in this case that the distribution date establishes the ex-date. The company has set August 1st as the distribution date, so the ex-date, by default, is Monday, August 4th. Now, the two purposes of the record date in this case are 1. to establish that only the shares outstanding as of July 23rd will participate in the distribution (which prevents any shares created by exercising convertible securities or secondary issues from participating, keeping the distribution amount fixed) and 2. to announce a technical point that is very misleading.

    To be continued ...

  • Reply to


    by dugas.daniel Jul 20, 2014 12:37 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 20, 2014 10:43 PM Flag

    "I am still not quite a 100% sure over what a buyer of NE shares gets tomorrow, new NE or old NE (with PGN)?"

    NE buyers through August 1st will also be buying the right to the PGN spinoff. The first day that NE will trade without the right to the PGN spinoff shares is August 4th, which is the ex-date.

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 17, 2014 6:54 PM Flag

    "I agree that the Nasdaq determination could be 'one day after distribution" but my reading of rule (c) says that this is not a requirement."

    I concede it's not a strict requirement. But since it happens that way over 99% of the time, there isn't a lot of room for doubt in this specific case. But by all means, doubt away.

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 17, 2014 6:33 PM Flag

    "It is incorrect that stock dividends are treated differently than cash dividends (wrt the 25% rule)"

    No, it's not incorrect. Spinoffs representing less than 25% of the underlying stock's price are routinely given with the ex-date as the first trading day after the distribution date. CHK just did one on June 30 that represented only 4% of CHK's price, and the ex-date was July 1st.

    "I would guess this means that the ex-date could be any date from now until the day after the distribution is made."

    No, the company has already informed shareholders that any sale of GERN shares up to and including the distribution date will also be selling their right to the spinoffs shares. That statement does not allow for an ex-date to be "any date from now."

  • cwn600 cwn600 Jul 17, 2014 2:28 PM Flag

    "there are only two rules when it comes to ex-divs; 2 days prior to the record date or a day after the distribution date."

    For individual stocks, yes.

    "The first is when the div is for less than 25% and the later for when it is above 25%."

    The latter is also for spinoffs, without regard to the 25% threshold.

    "NASDAQ doesn't know the value of the Asterias series A shares ATT so can't yet say which of these will apply but I think we can be pretty confident it is the first; so ex-div May 23rd. What am I missing?"

    You're missing two things. 1. Ex-dates are never set for a date that has already passed. 2. By telling shareholders that any shareholder of record on May 28 who sells their GERN shares is also selling their right to the spinoff, the company has made it clear that the ex-date wasn't May 23.

  • Reply to

    NE and PGN estimates

    by pismire_03 Jul 16, 2014 11:31 AM
    cwn600 cwn600 Jul 17, 2014 12:42 AM Flag

    "Does the PGN stock price have to be 25% of what NE is when the spinoff occurs"

    It doesn't have to, no. When-issued trading will determine the price of the spinoff before it's actually distributed.

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