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Energy Transfer Partners, L.P. Message Board

dar200 295 posts  |  Last Activity: 4 hours ago Member since: Nov 16, 1998
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  • First, the 27 million tax expense was NOT a write-off of the deferred tax asset because certain tax carryforwards expired. The company has a tax valuation allowance which reduces the deferred tax asset for benefits which are more likely than not to be not realized. At the end of 2013 they had some capital loss carryforwards which were expected to expire worthless. Thus, the deferred tax asset did NOT include any amount for the expected expiration.

    The 27 million income tax provision was the tax which was offset by carryforwards. In other words, they had taxable income of in the neighborhood of 90 million (probably from realized trading gains), but they will not write a check because loss carryforwards offset the current year taxable income.

    BTW, dividends are taxable only to the extent of current or accumulated earnings & profits (E&P), a modified form of undistributed taxable income, whether current (2014) or accumulated (all prior years combined).
    Their operating loss carryforward practically assures there is no accumulated E&P. Thus the tax provision means 2014 taxable income, enough to cause 27 million of tax were it not for carryforwards.

    For those who worry about whether the deferred tax asset is "real" (it is), it was 30.1% of stockholders' equity at the end of 2013 and is 19.1% at the end of 2014. The same goes for book value per share.

    My only concern is the 38 million add back for economic income of realized and unrealized gains and losses.
    I want to know how much is realized because a realized loss is very real. Unrealized losses can turn around. Realized losses are final. Book value per share is reduced by unrealized losses. I wish I knew that number.
    I suspect it is real big because they had enough realized gains to generate 27 million of hypothetical income taxes. I might just ask the company. I will report the result here.

  • Reply to

    OT Politics OT

    by rogluther Jan 23, 2015 1:49 PM
    dar200 dar200 Jan 23, 2015 2:53 PM Flag

    And notice he carved himself out, after contributing over 200,000 to EACH of his kids' plans. His proposal only taxes income from new contributions. This also leaves a loophole for the rich as they can contribute the max before the new rule goes into effect whereas the screwed middle class cannot. Socialist pig indeed.

  • Reply to

    Earning are out comments

    by diecutter75 Feb 18, 2015 8:42 PM
    dar200 dar200 Feb 18, 2015 9:00 PM Flag

    Looks like plenty of room to continue to increase distribution by 2 cents per unit per quarter.

    Will take several hours to pick through very complicated financial statements.

  • Reply to

    Down a dollar

    by longtillthe30th Mar 5, 2015 9:17 AM
    dar200 dar200 Mar 5, 2015 10:05 AM Flag

    Poor baby, crying because the nipple is not at your lips 24/7.

    Get lost. You are too stupid to own NRF.

  • Gotta admit, earlier than I expected.

    Now I expect 25 to 26 within 10 days of first release of est 2015 cad per share.

  • Reply to

    Nrf is the sequel to arcp

    by abcdsteve123 Mar 6, 2015 9:56 PM
    dar200 dar200 Mar 7, 2015 9:27 AM Flag

    Yup, I marked it with the iggy button.

  • As I (not Bloomberg) expected, 40 + 10. Both ex on 3/5 and paid on 3/13.

  • 23.33 + 19.00 = 42.33. Will hit 50.00 combined before 12/31/15, imo.

    Bump to nrf comes from a spinoff. Slow growth annuity thereafter. Bump to nsam comes from slow lazy market learning from spoonfeeding and the rear view mirror what a growth money machine nsam is. Appropriate multiple for growth rate thereafter.

  • NRF and NSAM posted new presentation slides to their respective websites last night or this morning.

    Neither presentation gives an estimated range of 2015 cad per share. This is a step back into the closet of secrecy for NRF and a very poor start at transparency for NSAM.
    Both have detailed budgets for 2015 and probably variable budgets in the event of contingencies and other variables. Why won't they share an estimated range of bottom line cad per share like NRF has done for the past several years?

    What equity REIT does not give forward ffo, affo, fad or cad guidance?

    I urge you individually and collectively to demand more forward disclosure from NRF and NSAM. NRF can disclose an estimate without a spinoff of Europe assets and then adjust it at a later date when the spin date is known. NSAM leaves us hanging with no guidance whatsoever as to their expected growth rate, especially no disclosure of expected nontraded capital to be raised. When NSAM was still part of NRF they disclosed in a footnote to the cad estimate that they used raising $800 million in 2014 in their calculations. This year, no disclosure whatsoever.

    If I were in your shoes I would inform NRF management that if they failed to make these common disclosurers, I would downgrade the stock to hold or sell and tell the whole world why.

    Please, please, all express disappointment and disapproval over this lack of transparency. NRF won't listen to me as I am just a peanut retail. You guys have clout. Please use it.

  • Reply to

    Dismal market performance

    by dar200 Mar 9, 2015 4:07 PM
    dar200 dar200 Mar 10, 2015 11:05 AM Flag

    I'm not focusing on one day. I'm focusing on a management action which I consider detrimental to shareholders. Does it not occur to you that they are hiding something when they fail to disclose a common disclosure they used to disclose?

    Does it not occur to you that when they fail to tell you what they expect to accomplish in 2015, you have no way of assessing whether they did a good job in executing the action plan to attain those accomplishments?

    You are a part owner of a business. You have a right to know in general terms what management's plans are for the year and the expected result of those plans. They just denied me that right. THAT'S what I'm angry about.

  • Reply to

    NRF underperforming YTD

    by dar200 Jan 7, 2015 4:13 PM
    dar200 dar200 Jan 7, 2015 5:02 PM Flag

    If you mean by "we" me, hell yes.

    NRF has a fantastic, tax deferred (imo) yield for anybody who buys before Hamo gets the yield down, probably by spinning off the mortgage business. So I see a pop to 22 when that happens. After that, imo, it's a slow growth yield hold, just like most equity reits.....get rich slowly.

    I still believe NSAM will hit 30 before year end on a great growth rate which a slow, lazy market has yet to see or believe.

    While I'm very p'od over the excessive compensation just paid, the thought of selling (other than flippers) has not even entered my mind.

  • dar200 dar200 Jan 16, 2015 1:15 PM Flag

    You got a thumbs up from me for the sentiment expressed, not for your ability to construct a poem.

  • Yesterday, sold 10,000 nrf and had enough proceeds to buy 7,978 nsam.

    This morning, sold 7,978 nsam and had enough proceeds to buy 10,403 nrf.

    Profit = 4.03% overnight. I got 4.03% more nrf shares than I started with.

    BTW, 403 x 18.55 (current price for nrf) = 7,476 for the kiddie Christmas fund

  • Reply to

    Dismal market performance

    by dar200 Mar 9, 2015 4:07 PM
    dar200 dar200 Mar 10, 2015 9:49 AM Flag

    No it isn't. A short is a trader. I am a part owner of this business. Management works for me and other shareholders. I have every right and reason to be angry at management for this step away from transparency and every right and reason to try to get them to reverse this course.

    None of this means I have changed my opinion as to whether these two companies remain a good long term investment for their respective but different reasons.

  • Reply to

    nrf still not in rmz

    by octopusink Feb 11, 2015 5:08 PM
    dar200 dar200 Feb 12, 2015 1:31 PM Flag

    IMO, too much of the equity business was purchased within the last 5 years which means it is unlikely to qualify for a tax free (actually deferred) spinoff. The mortgage business is "old and cold" and the parent has been in the real estate rental business for well over 5 years. Thus a distribution of stock containing the mortgage business is an easy tax free transaction, just like NSAM.

    Names can easily be changed without tax consequences. The existing NRF can be renamed Northstar Equity REIT and NEWCO can be renamed Northstar Mortgage REIT. Furthermore, it makes no difference which business (equity vs mortgage) is the one which leaves the existing corporate/partnership structure when the object is to separate the mortgage business from the equity business.

  • I just happened to look at level 2 on nrf.

    40,000 offered at 19.00 against 900 bid at 18.99. Crossing 19 will take some time at these volumes.

  • Reply to

    O.T. NYSM is up...

    by lunco Jan 23, 2015 11:53 AM
    dar200 dar200 Jan 23, 2015 12:15 PM Flag

    Hmmmmm, NYSM = Not Yet Senile Month? You type as well as I do.

    Nice to see some rebound. Same with FRN. I suspect the nondeal roadshow triggered new tute interest and once one puts pencil to paper, MASN has to come on the radar screen as a growth story.

    End of Feb is not that far away. I'm not likely to sell either (flippers only) until after earnings and new presentation materials. Maybe spinoff of mortgage business announced then. If so, big pop for nrf. First spoonfeed of est 2015 cad from nsam should also cause a pop. March 22.5 nsam calls are a good bet for maximum leverage gamblers, imo, although the spreads are horrible.

  • Reply to

    Billionaire Dividend Stocks

    by txgolfer63 Jan 22, 2015 10:59 AM
    dar200 dar200 Jan 22, 2015 11:47 AM Flag

    When a prostitute becomes a nun, how many years does she have to do nothing but nun things before the world stops seeing her as a prostitute?

  • 18.46 is a hair more than 1% below offer price, imo a table pounder. I think anything under the offer price is a bargain if for nothing else, for yield. Don't forget to subtract 40 cents of accreted dividend from your purchase price. 18.65 - .40 = 18.25. 1.60 / 18.25 = 8.77%.....I suspect mostly tax deferred roc for a few years.

    At 18.46 = 18.06 = 8.86%. Where else can you get this yield from reit which is 82% equity?

  • Reply to

    Still no release of 2014 tax treatment.

    by jridley17 Feb 9, 2015 9:55 AM
    dar200 dar200 Feb 9, 2015 11:28 AM Flag

    Look on the website for the dates of prior tax treatment statements. They wait until the auditors sign off on the year's numbers (and probably have auditor's tax people bless tax items) before they announce tax status.
    It will be somewhere between 2/20 and 2/27, imo.

    Don't worry. You'll get 100% roc on commom because I think they will deduct all of the 308 million loss on paying off convertible notes with nonconvertible debt even though they charged almost all of the loss directly to stockholders' equity for gaap purposes, a very convienient gaap treatment since it buried what a lousy deal they made issuing those convertible notes.

    The thing to watch is preferred tax treatment because preferred carries out taxable income in full before common. Last year (2013) about 16% of preferred dividends were ordinary which means taxable income was about 16% of total preferred dividends paid. If preferred also gets 100% roc for 2014, that means a tax loss for the year. Then you look at the 10-K for disclosures on income taxes in the footnotes. If material, they will disclose the amount and nature of tax loss carryforwards. That may give us a hint on 2015 tax status.

    Gotta read those sec filings to stay ahead of the lemming market.

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