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Compass Diversified Holdings Message Board

davidbdc2001 3880 posts  |  Last Activity: Aug 3, 2015 11:44 PM Member since: Nov 12, 2008
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  • Reply to

    Is it Time for a Buy Back of Units?

    by manulli Aug 3, 2015 11:56 AM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Aug 3, 2015 11:44 PM Flag

    The debt covenants will prevent much cash going out the door for buying units. Hypothetically it would be great to buy back all the units they just sold for $8. But it won't happen.

    What I'd like to see is for them to use some of the 750MM they just "re-affirmed" in terms of the LOC and buy back some distressed debt. That would create a bit of breathing space in terms of at least meeting interest payments next year.

    Make no mistake, short of geo-political events directly hitting Saudi Arabia there is not going to be a sharp rise in the price of oil. There is just too much oil in the market and with Iran ramping up its going to get worse before it gets better.

  • Reply to

    cooperman taking HUGE paper loss

    by isukasinvestor Aug 3, 2015 3:58 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Aug 3, 2015 11:34 PM Flag

    From what I'm hearing Iran is already ramping up capital spending on oil infrastructure - figure that there will be a 6-8 month lag and sometime early next year the amounts will grow quickly.

  • Reply to

    Share buyback announcement coming?

    by biotech_007plus Jul 18, 2015 1:11 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 18, 2015 7:06 PM Flag

    I'd encourage you to go back and read some of the transcripts from APL in 2008/09 and also to read through ATLS in 2010 through present. You'll find that the words and results rarely were similar.

    Keep in mind that APL sold off two very solid operating systems due to the hedging fiasco. The only thing that really brought back the APL/AHD entities was the fact we owned land in the Marcellus and its value went through the roof.

    I don't see anything similar happening here. Short a recovery in pricing I think we are in a tough spot.

  • Reply to

    Share buyback announcement coming?

    by biotech_007plus Jul 18, 2015 1:11 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 18, 2015 7:02 PM Flag

    I am aware of our leverage limits being 5.25 and then 5 moving forward.

    And at today's NG and oil price I believe that we'd be in violation of our covenants. Yes, we have hedges in place in the short term. Yes, I believe that in three or four years NG will be around $4+. No, I don't think we'll see oil get back to the level it was at for our last two acquisitions. And NGL's are a disaster.

    Look, I want everything to work out. Just be aware that Cohen has a history of leaving himself no wiggle room. His plans are for when things are great and when things are greater. I've lived through the ups and downs and heard him promise the moon more than once while delivering fools gold.

    If it were me, I'd suspend the distribution (after all the units have cratered 75% so who cares if they go down another 20%). Buy back discounted debt until either NG or Oil prices rebound. Then re instate the distribution and try to grow it rapidly.

    We are in a bad spot. We really can't use units as equity for acquisitions. Remember that we have a decline rate of 11-13% per year and at some point you have to ask where is the future production? Better to pay down debt, have a stronger balance sheet and have the ability to issue new debt (at lower rates hopefully) to expand.

  • Reply to

    Share buyback announcement coming?

    by biotech_007plus Jul 18, 2015 1:11 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 18, 2015 2:55 PM Flag

    That is only under the scenario where they are paying out a distribution. At some point our debt covenants will kick in and the distribution will be halted. Same thing happened in 08/09.

    By buying back the debt at a discount the leverage would be reduced.

    This is all a result of the last two deals. They overpaid at the time (when oil was over $100) - and now that prices are half - our ability to service the debt long term is questionable.

  • Reply to

    e and p MLPS

    by harehau Jul 16, 2015 12:11 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 16, 2015 1:04 PM Flag

    We do own decent assets (paid too much for some of them but others were bought at a good price).

    IMO - $4 is about a price at which I'm going to double down - get my average unit price below $10 and bet that NG is going to slowly recover over the next 2 years. Oil is now down to hoping for bad geopolitical events, economic growth will be sluggish and Iran will have about 1 million more barrels a day flowing by this time next year. So oil is a lost cause IMO unless war intervenes.

  • I think that $5 is about what they could pay out between now and mid-2020 if oil/NG prices remained the same. At which time asset sales would have to begin to occur to pay off debt (yes, its hypothetical as new debt could be issued and no one knows what pricing will be in 2019 nor next week!).

    This also ignores the covenants which are designed to protect the bond holders and prevent this type of scenario from happening. Have to believe that there are now funds that estimate the distribution will have to be cut off at some point in time due to the covenants and are exiting the position regardless of unit price.

    The likely Iran deal will put pressure on oil even though it will take 6-12 months for them to really ramp up production.

    Best thing that could happen for ARP holders is an ISIS bombing of SA's main oil production facilities followed by SA and Israel blowing Iran's nuclear facilities and oil production facilities to oblivion. That would double the unit price. But short of that type of activity, things are not looking good for ARP.

  • davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 7, 2015 1:32 PM Flag

    And under delivered (sorry but ran out of allowed spaces).

    The best case scenario IMO is that ARP continues to chug along paying the 10 cents a month until DCF doesn't support it. We have to hope for some type of NG and oil rebound by 2018. And by rebound I'm talking $4+ NG (which I think is likely) and oil at $90 (which I think would require some geo-political events and less likely). That would allow us to sell some assets to handle the debt due in 2021.

    As a long time holder, I am amazed at the constant self inflicted wounds. The stupid $6 million raise - using FOUR chop houses - was just plain stupid. It sends the message that we are broke - that no one respectable will loan us money. Far better to simply tell unit holders that one month distribution will be cut to cover the $6 million! 10.75% plus fees is halfway to loan shark territory!!

    Anyways, can this rebound to $10 - yes. If everything goes well we could see $15 with a healthier pricing environment. But if your hoping for $20 that would require some type of doomsday oil pricing of $150+ and probably means much of your other investments will have tanked! Those two acquisitions have permanently destroyed a good chunk of value.

    ALL IMO!!!!! And I've been wrong many times in my life!

  • davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 7, 2015 1:22 PM Flag

    The assets sold to cover the hedging fiasco were sold by APL and they consisted of two top flight operating systems. I believe that sale was done in May 2009. They didn't have much choice in the matter. Its about the same time that Dubay was brought in to run APL. I believe both moves were forced by the banks that held their debt.

    They later sold our Marcellus assets. Without going back to review everything - we first entered into a partnership with an Indian oil firm - but soon thereafter, simply sold the whole thing. The timing of that sale - in retrospect - WAS pretty good. Don't know that we got top pricing but got a decent amount for the assets sold.

    At the same time, there is no doubt that we never got close to any of the projections put forth from management. They were projecting that THIS YEAR ATLS would be paying us $4-$5 a unit! HA!

    They have overpaid for the APL assets mentioned and also the last two ARP acquisitions were blatantly overpaid (and I stated so at the time). Throw in the oil price collapse and you have value destruction probably somewhere in the 60% range on both of those acquisitions. Given the size of those acquisition compared to what previously existed and you get a unit price dropping from $20-$24 to $10 - then throw on oil and NG prices dropping and that gets you from $10 to $5.

    The reason for the large decline is that its tough to put forth a path to simply paying off our debt. Now it doesn't come due for 6 years - that's good. But given lower output and pricing it becomes a game of rolling it over and extending. Which on its own is fine, but it leaves you little room to then grow.

    Now on the positive side - we do own lots and lots of land - there is always a chance that we get something like the Marcellus on some of our holdings - I doubt that given the amount of exploration done the past five years. We so have the largest private partnership program in the country - but they have consistently overpromised.

  • davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 6, 2015 10:33 PM Flag

    Well to start with - do some back of the envelope calculations for DCF between today and 2021. Then look at the debt that comes due. And let us know how much extra $'s is left sitting around at various NG and NGL and Oil price points.

    Then you'll have your answer.

  • Reply to

    is $5.91 the bottom

    by perry20273 Jul 1, 2015 1:54 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jul 1, 2015 2:04 PM Flag


  • Reply to

    Comments on Seeking Alpha article

    by jbcguy Jun 27, 2015 2:22 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jun 29, 2015 2:44 PM Flag

    I had assumed the $6MM payments would simply be handled from normal DCF and partly why I wasn't overly surprised at the cut in the distribution.

    I don't think oil is going to $30, but then again when SA originally refused to cut I thought $60 was the low side - and bought ARP at $13.50 based on that obviously incorrect thought! Iran will be bringing a million barrels a day if not more by next year so agree that 50-60 is the most likely range for the foreseeable future. But you never know - one well placed ISIS bomb and SA's production could plummet. Likewise Greek Exit could trigger another financial fiasco and prices plummet.

    What I'd really like to see is ARP hire someone like Dubay, but with experience in E&P.

    Will be interesting to see what/if any distribution ATLS ends up paying out.

  • Reply to

    Comments on Seeking Alpha article

    by jbcguy Jun 27, 2015 2:22 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jun 29, 2015 10:48 AM Flag

    Hi Chegerar, Hope your doing well.

    I do expect that eventually NG fundamentals will swing back in the favor of producers. But I think it could take another 18-24 months for that to really begin. Hopefully, between power production and the ramping up of LNG we'll see NG return to the $4 level and hold firm.

    In terms of ARP (or any atlas entity) doing a good job with hedging - well..... I think you know.... that gave me a good laugh. I'll believe it when I see it!

    I do expect that there will be a further reduction in the distribution if oil prices don't reclaim the $80 level by the end of the year. The desperation $6 million raise through chop shops tells me that the door is shut in terms of major financing - and that they have very little financial flexibility currently. I wouldn't be surprised to see .05 a month (its not what I want obviously, but when I see the headline I'll just shake my head).

    But, as always, time will tell. Maybe we'll find one of our land holdings actually has huge gold reserves!

  • Reply to

    Comments on Seeking Alpha article

    by jbcguy Jun 27, 2015 2:22 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Jun 28, 2015 10:10 AM Flag

    Agree with your point.

    But I wouldn't assume that ARP will achieve the same cost reductions as other operators. Why? Because Cohen isn't an operator - he's a finance person. And the Atlas group has simply never achieved the same operational efficiencies as other companies. Will they see some savings - I'm sure they will but they will fall short.

    I do agree that they need to reduce the debt if/when they have the opportunity to do so. But since they just used 4 chop shops to raise $6 Million in preferred equity I don't see that happening anytime soon. Think about that for a minute - 4 firms to raise $6 Million. At a 10%+ coupon plus fees!

    Something is very wrong.

    The acquisition last year was terrible - we overpaid at the time - and now its a huge value destroyer.

    Keep in mind that the last time around (back in 2008/09) we got bailed out because we happened to have holdings in the Marcellus when that exploded. It was good luck. I don't see what is going to bail us out this time around.

  • Reply to

    Joke Raising $6M?

    by bullmkt2013 Apr 8, 2015 6:37 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Apr 10, 2015 11:44 PM Flag

    The real concern should be that it took 4 underwriters to find $6 million for ARP.

    10.75 coupon plus fees. Might as well just issue units to unitholders next month instead of paying cash distribution.

  • Reply to


    by jbcguy Mar 16, 2015 10:04 AM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Mar 16, 2015 2:05 PM Flag

    Well, I'm sure you are partially correct.

    But for those that have been investors in various Atlas entities for a while - we've seen this play before. This has the look and feel of 2008 all over again. Just keep in mind that in 2008 we lucked out with our Marcellus holdings. I don't see another pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.

    In 2008 it was screwing up the hedges twice - the second move from a panic at the worst possible time. That cost us two operating systems sold for about 400 million in 2009 - today those would be worth more than double (not to mention the cash flow).

    Sort of similar today - buying two oil acquisitions at the top - not properly hedging that production (claiming we were being "counter cyclical" or something to that effect). Now borrowing from a BCD to stay afloat. And basically praying that energy prices rebound. It certainly appears every producer is playing the same game - drill only your best - production still increases - and everyone is at the ready to boost it even more when the expected rebound happens..... which just ensures there won't be a rebound.

    Who knows, maybe some of our land will turn out to hold gold!!! And we'll become gold miners. But short of that type of luck, this may be just the early part of the decline. I hope otherwise, but all new holders should educate themselves to what has happened here previously.

  • Reply to

    Anyone get their ARP K1?

    by stockboardloser Mar 16, 2015 10:53 AM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Mar 16, 2015 1:55 PM Flag

    Yes I've received mine. If your having problems with the website might be worth a call. It should be available to you - and if you ever lost the hard copy or wanted to reference it while away from home its convenient to be able to pull up.

  • Reply to

    Series A Preferred

    by bosox_pats Mar 4, 2015 5:03 PM
    davidbdc2001 davidbdc2001 Mar 4, 2015 6:11 PM Flag

    Hi Bosox,

    This is similar to an convertible they issued in 2009 for APL and was mysteriously bought by an unknown equity fund. Owners were not offered the ability to participate (I called and asked to). It was an outright give away and I'm sure Cohen or his family benefited greatly. If I recall correctly the conversion price was something like 6.50 and when issued the units were trading at $8.50!!!

    Its just more of the same and the longer your an owner the more you'll shake your head.

    Personally, if oil/NG remain depressed I think we could see this new Atlas get down to the $2-$3 range. There is little reason to believe that operations will improve to the point that the IDR's hold great value. Given the recent performance and sale of APL, I would expect this should yield over 10% in exchange for the executive office risk.

  • davidbdc2001 by davidbdc2001 Feb 26, 2015 6:38 PM Flag

    But, they expect MORE production next year from those 7 rigs!

    For those that bet on SD I'd say you have to feel good about their ability to lower costs and increase efficiency.

    Good news for ARP that we got the covenants changed, though basically lost our liquidity along with it. Not a huge fan of borrowing from a BCD but I guess that was all that is left. Kind of concerning to hear that we borrow 250 MM and then have liquidity of 225MM - means we were in dire straits.

    Best news I've heard lately though is that Nigeria is agitating for an earlier OPEC meeting. Means that they are really feeling the pain of lower prices. Though I don't expect an early meeting, there is a possibility that perhaps in June OPEC announces small cuts or perhaps commits to a freeze of current production for next year.

  • davidbdc2001 by davidbdc2001 Feb 13, 2015 11:20 AM Flag

    I was hoping we'd get two cents but we get - I'll take it.

16.97+0.18(+1.07%)Oct 9 4:02 PMEDT