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Enterprise Products Partners L.P. Message Board

donedealer 58 posts  |  Last Activity: Nov 23, 2014 10:32 AM Member since: Jul 2, 1998
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  • Reply to

    Patience and Value investing realities

    by allenstanson Nov 21, 2014 5:35 PM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 23, 2014 10:32 AM Flag

    ribr

    True, ACAS is worth more than the current price. But with a single digit ROE it is worth less than NAV. It apoears to have earnings of about $1,25 and therefore a growth in NAV of about 6% to 7%. If it can achieve closer to NAV in the short term it is a good investment. However, if it takes longer term then an alternative investment fairly priced but growing at 15% or more is probably a better investment. If ACAS had $2.00 per share of earning power it would be selling for at least NAV.

  • Reply to

    ACAS recent news and current share price

    by bellard Nov 21, 2014 10:13 AM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 21, 2014 2:00 PM Flag

    NMB

    That is correct. However, the main point is that with the stock apparently so cheap there are no company buybacks and no insider buys.

  • Reply to

    ACAS recent news and current share price

    by bellard Nov 21, 2014 10:13 AM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 21, 2014 12:06 PM Flag

    buyandwin

    Add to your list that Mr. Market is subtracting a few dollars from NAV for dilution from stock options and deferred taxes for losses. For those who reject this possibility consider further that Mr. Markets doesn't like companies that loot the shareholders by granting stock options
    equal to about 20% of the shares outstanding. This is at low stock prices created by prior management mistakes. Another reason Mr. Market doesn't like deferred taxes for NOL's is because it reminds him that they arise from bad investments. This appears to say that maybe this management is not only greedy but lacking in competence. Lastly, Mr. Market reasons why should I buy this stock when the company has suspended buybacks and management makes only open market sales not buys.

    OF course Mr. Market can be wrong and I hope thjs is the case.

  • Reply to

    ACAS NAV at 20.54!

    by bellard Nov 19, 2014 10:06 AM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 19, 2014 11:44 AM Flag

    Therefore, if there were 1 billion options outstanding at an exercise price of 1 cent per share this would be of no concern to you. However,it, it would be of concern to the person to whom you would try to sell your shares. .

  • Reply to

    ACAS NAV at 20.54!

    by bellard Nov 19, 2014 10:06 AM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 19, 2014 11:16 AM Flag

    bellard

    So you would value at present NAV a company with 1 million shares outstanding and 99 million options outstanding. The future is irrelevant, like an oncoming train in a tunnel. I gather you are not a Certified Financial Analyst.

  • donedealer donedealer Nov 19, 2014 10:49 AM Flag

    NMB

    Regarding the 54.1 million options the average exercise price is $9.15 per share and all but 1 million shares have an exercise price .of no more than $16.72 per share. The fact that some shares may be exercised in the future is not relevant , they are an overhang.

    I hear what you say about deferred tax, yet clearly any value is discounted. They have not currently producing any income.

    Lastly, 54 million option shares appears to smack of greed. Also, the market sees insider sales but no open market purchase by either the employees or the company. This fosters the reaction:" if they are not buying why should I?"

  • There are 264 million shares outstanding on $5.444 billion of equity for an NAV of $20.54. However, the market realistically sees that there are 54.1 million option shares that will be exercised at an average price of $9.15. This results in 318.1 million shares outstanding on $5.939 billion of equity for an NAV of $18.66. This results in a decline in NAV per share of $1.88. Next the market assigns little value to the $434 million of deferred taxes which equates to another $1.36 per share. This reduces NAV to $17.30 for a total decrease of $3.24 per share.

    Last but not least the market questions whether it wants to invest in a company that granted options to employees equal to 20% of the shares outstanding before the options. This may be an omen into the future.

    Yes, I am a long-term holder but no longer am looking at ACAS through rose colored glasses.

  • Reply to

    Capitulation in ACAS likely next week

    by pacman010987 Nov 14, 2014 2:40 PM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 15, 2014 10:13 AM Flag

    NMB

    My cost basis in ACAS is about the same as yours (plus some profits from trading some shares). I have successfully beaten the S&P 500 over the years. I benchmark all my stocks against cost and also against the S&P 500. If I reach a stretch when I am unable to beat the S&P 500 I will quit stock picking and invest in the SPY or some other index fund.

    Year to date, ACAS is down 3.4% but is down 13.8% against the S&P 500, which is up 10.4%. This is not good. I am fortunate to be ahead of the S&P 500 year to date thanks to other investments (thank you Richard Kinder, large blue chips and AGNC).

    ACAS is beginning to remind me of the old Brooklyn Dodgers:"wait til next year".

  • Reply to

    Capitulation in ACAS likely next week

    by pacman010987 Nov 14, 2014 2:40 PM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 15, 2014 9:50 AM Flag

    NMB

    You appear to be assuming that ACI and ACGI will be trading at a price of at least 90% of their combined NAV of $16 per share or about $14.40 per share. This would equate to a yield of 8.3% with $1.20 of dividend distributions. Yet ARCC, perhaps the best of breed, yields 9.3%, AINV 9.8%, GLAD 9.1% and PSEc 13.7%.. 8.3% yield assumption appears very low.

    A sidebar comment on your returns to date on your cost basis. This is history. We are now focusing on the future. I get the sense that many posters are holding ACAS based on the past performance. Such investments are referred to as "applause stocks" held by investors based on their past performance. However, investing is about the future. ACAS doesn't know or care about your purchase price.

  • donedealer donedealer Nov 14, 2014 12:35 PM Flag

    My concern is that with each of these sharp run ups followed by collapses investors/speculators get burned.
    This increase the distrust of ACAS and sows the seeds for lower valuations in the future. The stock will get a reputation: sell all rallies. It's probably going to take a long track record of performance to get a fair valuation.

  • The market is not impressed by the restructuring plans. The most convincing argument supporting the market's view is that neither insiders or the company are buying at these levels. Further the shares of BDc's and asset manager spin-offs (FSAM, ARES, MDLY) are not performing well.

  • donedealer donedealer Nov 13, 2014 12:25 PM Flag

    NMB

    This appears to be spin-offs of operating companies owned by the BDC, PSEC. Unlike ACAS, PSEC is externally managed. I sold all my shares in PSEC earlier in the year. They have been expanding too aggressively and I have concerns about the quality of their holdings.

  • Reply to

    Help Please...Three companies

    by seanpryder Nov 10, 2014 7:42 PM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 12, 2014 8:15 AM Flag

    NMB

    I believe the fair market value is determined based on the trading after the spin off (usually a day or two).

  • Reply to

    Help Please...Three companies

    by seanpryder Nov 10, 2014 7:42 PM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 11, 2014 1:49 PM Flag

    NMB

    I believe that your Part 1 is correct. Restated it is as follows:
    your tax basis in ACAS will be divided between ACAS and ACGI (based on the fair market values of each). You will receive a stepped- up basis in ACI based on your recognition of taxable income upon that distribution (which should be the market value of those shares)..

  • Reply to

    ACAS is repeating its trading pattern

    by donedealer Nov 10, 2014 5:06 PM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 10, 2014 6:48 PM Flag

    NMB

    I hope you are right, but the sellers (short sellers) appear to arrive the day of the cc.

  • It recovers to a cyclical peak just before and at the earnings release date. It then retrenches until again recovering at the next earnings release date. Conclusion: ACAS will not challenge $16 until the February '15 earnings release at the earliest.

  • donedealer donedealer Nov 6, 2014 11:10 AM Flag

    I can remember way back when posters said that the discount would contract when the market got a hint of the restructuring. Didn't happen. Then posters said when the market hears it discussed on cc, Didn't happen. Then, when it was announced. Hasn't happened. Next it will be: when the restructuring occurs. Note we are still about 5% below the 16.37 set in January of this year v an S&P that is solidly up. .

  • Conclusion: The restructuring nearly priced into the market. Share buybacks please!

  • Reply to

    Based on the volume.

    by bg4value Nov 5, 2014 9:40 AM
    donedealer donedealer Nov 5, 2014 12:06 PM Flag

    lenyw

    ACAS has been considering a restructuring which requires consultation with bankers and lawyers.
    I have noted that in that type of circumstance the market has a way of anticipating good and bad news prior to the earnings release. Read what you want into this observation.

  • Reply to

    acas enhancing noi

    by sandy.criscione Oct 30, 2014 7:08 PM
    donedealer donedealer Oct 31, 2014 6:49 AM Flag

    zeit

    I fail to understand your optimism. ACAS is working toward a separation of their asset management business from their asset ownership business. The principal goal is to achieve greater value for their asset management business, ACAM. Yet, we watched the virtually collapse yesterday of FSAM, an asset manager IPO, and we have seen very poor performance for two other recent IPO's: ARES and MDLY.

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