"he is Chinese and he is the one who talked me into buying this"
That is wonderful news, because I'm certain that we've all made millions following the advice of Chinese talking us into buying Chinese RTOs.
You are correct. I'll explain myself. CBEH clearly has acted for years in manners that are absolutely inexplicable by the standards of legitimate businesses. I never disputed that, though I felt there might be something there, but with high levels of suspicion. Then when Steven Markscheid first agreed to work for CBEH, it gave me a feeling that there could be a reason to trust the company in the long run even though I was still quite skeptical. But finally sometime last fall with all the talk of the financials coming out imminently and getting confirmation from everyone I checked with I fell under the spell of hope and thought that the story was finally changing.
But only one 10-K was put out at first. I was disappointed. Also, the 10-K showed deterioration in the business and profits in steep decline. I kept up hope for the upcoming AGM. But that led nowhere. At that point I thought about it and should have sold out over a dollar per share, but I thought just perhaps, just perhaps to wait another couple of months for all the financials to get out. It can't take that long, But it did. The stock drifted lower and lower. The length of the delay was inexplicable once again. Then Markscheid was dumped. I saw some negative words from Markscheid. Then shortly after the SEC started the process to de-register the shares. The story just got uglier and uglier.
I occasionally look at other Chinese stocks that I used to follow. Recently DYNP was de-registered by the SEC. At one point people had convinced me that the company was legit, but that they only had a $3 million dollar balance sheet issue with Deloitte, their auditor. Apparently $3 miilion in trade show expenses was not explained and it was assumed that that money was used to bribe people. Illegal, yes, but small potatoes compared to the company. But that wasn't the whole story and now the stock is essentially worthless.
Then I recently saw CCCL...
Prospects aren't too bright.
I bet you anything that the CBEH EPS, if it is ever reported, will very much disappoint. The biodiesel production is mostly all offline. The gas stations were disappearing rapidly and at last count only two were left. I put nothing on the 2011 EPS numbers, which were already significantly down. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the company is running at a loss currently. Other China cos went from magical huge profits to losses quickly when they attempted to make their financial statements more honest.
Cash per share alone does not matter for valuation. You have to take the entire balance sheet into consideration. What if some company has $3 per share in cash, but $103 per share in debt? You need to look at net assets, and more specifically net tangible assets.
Revenue per share doesn't matter either. Profitability per share does.
Of your four comparisons only the first and third matter and only the first is based off of numbers that I would say might be reasonable.
There is very little upside potential in comparison to CCCL and there is a very real 100% downside potential,
Yeah, I know that none of the longs like to think about reality. Just down thumb me and don't counter any of my claims because deep inside you know that I am right.
Very recently CCCL regained compliance with the Nasdaq Listing standards and the exchange resumed trading in the shares. CCCL had some funny business like CBEH. The specifics are different, but still fishy smelling funny business. There was what sounds like fraud being done at a real business, in which aspect it is identical to CBEH. Arguably CCCL is way ahead of CBEH. CCCL is compliant with the SEC and the Nasdaq. CBEH is off the Nasdaq and at risk of being de-registered by the SEC. CCCL has their financials out. CCCL now trades at about 10% of tangible book value.
If CBEH getting their financials out only brings the stock to 10% of tangible book value, there is quite limited upside from here. De-registration can bring the shares to essentially zero. The upside is far less than people here have been claiming for years. There is no way that CBEH somehow jumps to several dollars per share.
"The other China stocks did not have Loeb & Loeb..."
Au contraire, Loeb & Loeb defended numerous Chinese companies that are now fully accepted as frauds. Since when is there the belief that lawyers only defend the innocent? Or especially that high priced and/or famous lawyers only defend the innocent? Note that OJ Simpson and Charles Mason both had lawyers, so by your logic... You would not fall into such an easy logic trap if you were not invested in this story.
I've sold all my high priced CBEH shares for tax losses (most late last year) and have kept some that I picked up on the cheap. I'm not saying that CBEH isn't worth a gamble for a few bucks, but those who have rose colored glasses on a defend everything about the company, they are highly foolish.
Phoenix, you strike me as much more reasonable than most here. I thank you for being willing to discuss both sides of the story. I am playing the devil's advocate here partly for entertainment, partly because it frustrates me to see people with such massive blinders on, and partly to exercise my debating skills.
"because of concerns over management representations not the numbers"
Concern over management representations about what then? If the auditors are concerned, it comes down to the numbers. This isn't a case where management was claiming that it was sunny and dry outside in the middle of a monsoon or that management said Nickleback made the best music ever. No, the auditor's concerns are about management representations as they relate to the numbers and/or legality of business activity. That is whole point.
I certainly wouldn't bet my life on the ability of the current auditors to completely verify past financials. It is nearly impossible to do a 100% verification. Spot checks are done and numerous Chinese firms have been caught falsifying the checks. Fake bake statements, fake bank web sites, fake billing, fake confirmations, fake order back logs etc. have all been used. A more recent case was with CCCL in which the auditors discovered that while they were spot confirming orders with customers that the handwriting on the returned confirmations was all the same. A company insider was faking all of it.
With all the other scams in nearly every single Chinese RTO and even some direct listed Chinese stocks what makes everyone so sure that CBEH is so above the board? This isn't to say that there isn't anything there, but if the company was 100% legit there is no way that they would be where they are today.
You are claiming that the easily verifiable truth is a lie. What a loser! KPMG resigned and withdrew their 2010 audit opinion on CBEH. That is easily verifiable. To claim otherwise is simply pathetic.
As to your other idiotic claim that CBEH holders are in a win-win situation because the auditor is liable, there is zero precedent for such a claim in such cases. How much per share did the shareholders of DYP and CCME recover from Deloitte?
Again you cannot cite one case to backup your stupid claim. There have been dozens of other cases that disprove your claim though.
Sentiment: Strong Sell
CHBT. You are a fool beyond belief. Plenty of top international auditors put out audit reports on Chinese scam companies. KPMG removed their audit. I can't believe that anyone with even the slightest clue trusts that CBEH's audit by KPMG was accurate. If it was, they wouldn't be where they are now.
You are a major dreamer completely unaware of reality and apparently happy to defend your near complete lack of knowledge.
Can you cite any cases where owners of Chinese RTOs recovered anything from the auditors? If so, how much? You claim it is a win-win situation, so there must be significantly many substantial awards to back your claims. I am aware of zero substantial awards from the auditors.
Every now bust Chinese RTO that I followed and/or wasted money on had dreamers defending it until the last day. This time is no different. The dreamers would never listen to logic. They would never discuss anything. They would only dream, dream, dream. If you say anything that may bust their bubble, they only get upset.
I was saved in several Chinese stocks by coming to reality early. I sold out. In a couple I actually made money. I made money by selling my #$%$ stocks before reality hit the majority of holders. But CBEH has wasted both my money and my time. I held CBEH the longest. CBEH gave me hope that it _might_ be different. But there is so much evidence against them. They've taken far too long. Their actions are inexplicable. Their explanations do not hold water.
How do you come up with this? Haven't they failed long enough already? Why does it matter that supposedly "local chinese" wasted lots of money on this?
Do you realize that dozens of Chinese RTOs went bust already? "Local Chinese" wasting money on those wasn't a "nice thing". It did not matter then. It does not matter now. You make up any stuff that is supposedly positive and the dreamers will up vote it. Say anything negative, even the absolute truth, and the dreamers get upset.
Why is this time different?
The lawsuit was never a big deal in my mind. I think that I've stated that.
A year ago it looked like they were finally going to get their financials out. I was quite happy to see them get out a 10-K, but only one. It has been far toooo long since then to have put out _zero_ further 10-Ks. How can almost every other company get them out on time? Huge mega national companies do reports every quarter, but CBEH takes more than half a year and cannot put out one more? What a bunch of ... Last year I had hope that the game of deception was finally ending, but it only appears to have changed. There is _no_ legitimate excuse for how they have gotten to where they are now. Can you honestly fall for their story?
Last year the company was not under the SEC's gun with in a de-registration process. The story is quite different now and worse, not better. De-registration can easily soon enough make the shares completely worthless. That huge risk wasn't even in the air last year.
CBEH is finally under the gun. After years of honestly inexplicable delays do you expect them to finally come clean, get current, and sneak in under the wire before the SEC pulls the plug? Yes, it still could happen, but there is far more risk now. There has been nearly yet another year of the company showing that it cannot produce anything on time. And is now the time to finally believe that the company will come through? Be very aware that the SEC HAS TO ALSO AGREE THAT CBEH IS REFORMED OR IT IS GAME OVER.
Now tell me that I don't have reason to view this differently now.
"if the SEC gets off their back"
What a joke!!! The SEC has only recently started down the road toward de-registration of CBEH. The SEC has let them slide for years now with very little interaction at all.
Don't believe the lies. Class action lawsuits do not prevent financials from being released. This thing stinks beyond belief.
I like how casual you are about it in saying "with some past financial issues and management that has not been investor friendly". How many Chinese RTOs defended themselves against all allegations, but nonetheless turned out to be guilty as sin? You have no idea of the actual extent of past financial issues and you cannot quantify "some past financial issues". There is no way that I see that the reality is anywhere near as innocent as you seem to imply. The CEO did not happen to use the petty cash for lunch money a couple of times. This goes far deeper than that. Otherwise, there is no way that after more than three years the company would be fighting to even keep its stock registered.
Are you that foolish? 800 shares were traded at 36 cents. That is $288 dollars worth of stock. Yeah, that sure is the big boys.
Can any long please explain to me honestly and cogently why this news is so good? Let's see if there can be an honest discussion. I'll happily admit that I am wrong if someone can defend their side and not just blindly cheer for anything.