Well then you could get a union job with a nice pension just to find out the pension fund managers make the same salary as corporate CEOs and you still get zilch in the rip off game because that's where they invest the pension funds. You still lose.
The only game here is the one being run by the FED and there is no place to hide from that one.
The stock market game is the only one we have. It's our job to figure out how to be on the winning side. I just didn't get that part right when I picked WPRT. It's the only loser I have and it's cost me about 25000 bucks.
You are right on the mark. WPRT management says one thing then does another. It's hard to have confidence when they say they have the funds needed to reach profitability then they float new shares at a low price and bring the market price down. How does that send a solid message that they can deliver.
I too can't find numbers current or projected that yield a multiple to support 20.
Looks like dead money for a long time. If they just get to even we investors get zero and management will take millions upon millions in salary and bonus. Like steeling food from a super market and it's all legal.
Simple answer. The market has lost confidence that this management team can deliver earnings growth. That's all it is.
If they deliver then those who buy now will be rewarded but there are more people on the sell side who want to move on. Why are so many waking away? Because they do not see a return on their investment. When you can't beat the return of the 10 year t bond you are not getting the job done.
I am a long term invested and at his point I too dot have a good idea if WPRT management can return 5 percent over the next 5 years. It's not looking good. As some point the revenue has got to make a big enough up side move to generate earnings better then 5 percent and that could be years.
People are looking for reasons which are not there. Shorts, this and that. We have a few problems and they are straight forward.
1) Sales volume is not moving up fast enough
2) No sales means no earnings per share
3) Oil prices and diesel are not all that bad if you remove the tax penalty on diesel and that tax will also hit trucking if they start using larger amounts of Nat Gas.
4) Management says they have the cash they need to reach profitability in 2014, then they float new shares at a lower price then market and take value from those of us who are share holders.
I have no problem with insiders sell to meet financial needs but, it would also be nice to see other insiders buying. If it's nothing but selling it might not mean anything but, insiders buying is almost always good.
The market does not have faith in WPRT management. If sails grow and earnings follow the short term history will not matter. Now the issue is, are the shorts correct about what is happening? I am starting to wonder myself. WPRT will make it but it might be without any profit to return to shareholders.
This company is road kill. No growth for 35 years in an industry which has grown 35 percent over the same time. How is this possible and why would anyone invest in it?
This is not "the largest" just a 4 bay fill up station for large class 8 trucking. Trucks may show up at any time. It will be a problem if they need to wait for fuel longer then diesel. Yes, large CNG tanks can buffer the fuel but their pressures will drop the moment any fill up starts. So larger compressors will need to boost the pressure. For municipal truck fleets which can be filled up slowly over night, high speed demand filling is less of an issue and the systems can load tanks to buffer fuel all day.
If WPRT is going to reach volume shipments there will need to be substantial build out of the fueling systems. We all know it's underway but it seems to be early in the game. Sales numbers for each quarter are showing WPRT is having difficulty increasing revenue. I only bring this up as one factor which may be holding sales down longer then we had hoped.
Forget about stock price for a moment and just look at the issue of sales. WPRT has been around for years. We need to identify why deployment is this slow and how. Can WPRT increase sales volume enough to justify our investment when we have so many other opportunities. I currently hold about 15 different stocks and funds. WPRT is the only one have lost money on. It is very possible that WPRT could have successful road ahead but just not generate enough earning for share holders to benefit.
One more time, CLNE has noting to do with compressing 40 gallons per minute equivalent diesel at 5500 CFM.
And again, for 5500 CFM to fill 4 trucks are you saying the numbers are wrong? If so post them as apposed to just inferring they are incorrect. That would be helpful for all investors.
Your number of $600,00,,,, is a zero missing?
Volume is the key, They must be able to fill what shows up at any time. Companies can't pick their location. They are already out there and will install LNG or CNG systems in their current locations.
No one is asking you to do "leg work". This is just a discussion and what the forums are all about. I am still looking also but, the numbers make sense for pressures of 4500 PSI. This is a forum for information exchange and the more numbers we can verify the better. You seem to be making this a forum for attack. Not sure that does anyone any good.
People took exception to my post on another thread regarding compression numbers for CNG from CLNE. I will start with the fact I posted 2 errors. The electric motors for a 4 hose fill up system at 40 gallons per minute total are not 25000 but 2500 HP. The electrical service needed for the motors is not 3 mega watts but 2 mega watts.
Now I have been attacked as being a CLNE investor. Not true, I have not position in CLNE. I currently hold 2015 shares of WPRT with a total loss of about 24000 dollars. I understand it’s not a large position. Having said that let us concentrate on the energy loses with regard to the movement of Natural gas in the CNG state. In addition this is just for disclosure and my loss or gain is irrelevant to the discussion of the cost of CNG/LNG distribution needed by WPRT. So, please stick to the numbers and forget about CLNE.
People, this has ZERO to do with CLNE. 4500 PSI CNG is the same no matter what company's compressors or motors put it in a tank.
This is very important in that it is part of the overhead of the deployment of CNG and it effects WPRT and all of us who are share holders.
Numbers again for a 4 bay station which might need to fill 4 class 8 trucks at 40 gallons per minute.
4500 PSI CNG pressure
2 mega watts of power to run the compressors
2500 HP worth of electric motors to drive the compressors
5500 CFP compressor capacity total
500,000 dollars pre mile for 10 inch gas line installation
millions in investment to deploy this station assuming the power and gas line is available
Now, this came from CLNE. If it’s wrong then what is correct, because that’s all that matters. THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH CLNE. These costs directly effect those of us who are WPRT share holders and understanding the numbers is critical to our knowledge of this investment.
Now, if the numbers are wrong, I want to be corrected because it’s important to our understand of the deployment of this fuel.
Watch the presentation and you will change you mind just like I did.
Most small city gasoline stations do not have access to that much power. You miss the point entirely. These are the direct recommendation from the people who sell the compressor systems. An interstate trucking stop might be miles from a gas line.
City line pressures are only 50 PSI. CLNE is the major provider of the fueling infrastructure. I am not an investor in CLNE. WPRT has nothing without the CLNE fueling systems. Look and the numbers and try to prove them wrong based on pressures and fill up times. You will be surprised just as I was. The compressor are huge.
Don't be a sap do some research like I did and understand why this fuel is slow in deployment.
Watch the video on when to use LNG V CNG at the CLNE web site. This is critical information which must be known by those installing the fueling systems. LOOK AT THE REAL NUMBERS.
Look at the raw numbers. CLNE sells the compressor systems which will fill the WPRT tanks.
And don't make assumptions. I do not own CLNE I only hold WPRT. Watch the video. Your statement is 1/2 brained. These are real numbers. The pressures are enormous. Educate yourself or lose money. Filling a tank to 4500 PSI will take hours or you have to deal with the heat of compression causing a fill up with less pressure when the tank cools. A fast fill up without huge CNG holding tanks will require high power compressors to pump a full fuel load. With out the stuff you can't get people in and out. LNG will take a few minutes but CNG is another story.
Don't attach people unless you can post numbers or sources to prove it.
This is complex stuff, invest without knowing and you will get killed. This is part of the reason I am down 30,000 dollars. I didn't do enough research.
To those who want to buy into WPRT. Do all the research before you invest or you too might be down 30,000 dollars. VERIFY
See for yourself. Go to the clean energy fuels web site. Under products and services select trucking. Down on the page under TRUCKING RESOURCES you will find a link to a webinar on when to use LNG V CNG. I too was surprised by the raw numbers but, a home air compressor only pumps to 125 PSI and will consume 6 amps of current at 120 volts. That's 720 watts of power. CNG is 4500 PSI, that's over 35 times the pressure so it makes perfect sent that to provide the compressor power for 4 stations would require 25000 HP. The only other option would be to have large CNG tanks on site an keep them full at 4500 PSI but, their pressure would quickly drop as people pull fuel. Don't question the numbers check for your self. I would have thought the same until saw the presentation by the supplier of the fueling components and their recomendations.
Everyone investing in WPRT should watch this video.
CNG - LNG are 2 completely different fuels when considering refueling.
Gas/diesel is pumped into a tank at almost no cost for the fueling company. Nothing more then a simple electric motor driving a pump. Not much different the pumping water.
LNG is another liquid transfer and not all that expensive.
CNG -- for a station to add just 4 fueling units an investment of 3 million is required and it needs a 10 inch pipe line which might be impossible to install. A station might not be able to even get the 3 mega watts of electrical power, needed to run the 25000 HP electric motors needed to drive the compressors to load 4500 PSI into a tank. I am not making this up you can find this at clean energy fuels web site.
Nat gas is not an easy fuel to commoditize and we are seeing the difficulty in reaching profitability for WPRT.
Nat gas as a transportation fuel will make it but, it might not be profitability to stock holders.
Well, thats just not correct. WPRT has been around too long to be put in the incubator class for sure and like all business, cash flow to profitability is a just as critical as the product which is being developed. It is painfully clear to me that WPRT needs a better CFO and staff to successfully handle this part.
I did a lot of study before buying into WPRT and it wasn't enough.
I will agree with all that Nat Gas and WPRT will have a long future. People/(the market) will find a way to use this fuel in the years to come but and this is a big one, --- while the fuel will be used, it may never be a profitable venture. By the time management gets their cut there may be very little left over share holders. The obstacles for CNG are too many to list. Like the need for 3 mega watts of power, a 10 inch gas line at 400,000 a mile to install, 25000 HP worth of compressors just to install 4 refilling units at a fuel station. Fast refill of CNG is not possible. This information is directly from a clean energy fuels presentation which is intend to make people understand what it takes to manage this fuel in the CNG mode. LNG has it's own issue and is only usable in large capacity systems which can be run around the clock.
I am starting to think that the best I my hope for is to cover my 25000 dollar loss and move on. I am having a hard time making the numbers justify my hold possition. At this time with the numbers we have it's difficult to determine what is a reasonable price and multiple to base it on, assuming we will ever have a profit we can use to generated a multiple.
I can only recommend that anyone looking to invest in WPRT put in a minim of 100 hours of study so you understand as much as possible about how this fuel is managed. The is one speculative play which has burned me good.
Very simple answer.
When management stops spending and start selling product. WPRT is going nowhere until revenue increases leading to profit. The move to the plus side could still be 18 months away.
Correct and the same for all the people who keep filling up the planet with more new people who want fuel. In addition every one of our 6 billion humans who will burn all this stuff also only care about their future profits. I will be 100 percent honest. I only care about myself and my profits.
A famous person once said "I'm the only cause I'm interested in"
Stick with the technical issues related to WPRT and the nat gas industrial.
You were on the right track yesterday and you have relapsed.
Here it is November and I look out the window and see snow on the ground from 3 weeks ago. Bring on the warming. I may install a heating system to melt the snow on my driveway just like my neighbor did.
It's being manipulated? You have some proof that the SEC needs to know about.
What a load of B S.
I'm down big time because of management floating too many share not manipulation.
Well then I suggest moving to high ground because energy use of all kinds is not going down.
If it's going to get warm, so be it. Bring it on.
Another suggestion would be for you to move to the middle east and protest in the streets to get the Saudis to stop pumping oil. Then, if you are still alive take your road show to Brazil and Venezuela. I'm sure they will stop energy development on your command.
Take a look at the parking lot at JPL, you will find more 4WD SUVs the electric cars. As Josh Willis stated "todays projections are not perfect". He is correct and I would add they are just plain stupid.
And, don't have any kids, tell Al Gore not to have any more and to park his private jet.
Join the real world or start swimming.
Well, we finally agree on something. A very rational post.
Only one problem, The OPEC nations have huge debt loads just like every other nation. They don't have as much control as everyone believes. They have massive payments to make as all nations do and can't just turn off the valve beyond a certain point. Their goal is to try to get the maximum amount for their commodities over the long haul and that is difficult. The goal is not to pump oil but to pump money. Ship just the right amount as to get the maximum dollars possible. Pump too much and the price will fall and the dollars in over 5 years will drop. Pump too little and revenue can stall in the short term. The Saudis may have the largest oil field in the world but it's still only a small part of the global system.
We are so far past the point of over supply with Nat Gas that Iran won't be much of a factor on the global market. Our problem is moving Nat gas not finding more. Over time that too will be dealt with. Sooner or later the Nat Gas supply will stabilize with the market. It might take 5 years but it will happen.
Now, if only WPRT management and it's partners can figure out the market and their own production. To make a profit in Natural Gas China must figure out how to transport it and use. China is the key for Nat Gas and the buildout is underway.
You are in trouble if you believe that. You think freight trains and long haul trucking are going to run on solar or wind? Ocean container shipping with diesel engines as big as houses burning 3500 gallons of fuel per hour are going to run on solar power? You can't possibly be serous.
You are also not looking at the long term demand with developing world markets becoming consumers. It's going to take every bit of energy the world can come up with. Wind, solar, Nuclear, oil, gas it's going to take every bit of every single one of them to provide for 10 billion people world wide.
As for anything but light cars in short haul local use there will never be batteries which will be able to handle long haul transportation.
Electricity is just one component and in no way will it replace any of the other energy fuels.
Also remember there are a lot of people who hold the attitude of no wind turbines blocking the view where I live. I have first hand experience with that one working for the UT state energy department. I have seen huge numbers of wind turbines installed just east of Evanston WY. All these additional forms of power will do is increase supply, lower price and cause more demand.
Management just floated new shares at a low price. Cost of tooling up is very high. Sales growth has been slow. In addition, oil reserves have grown holding diesel prices at reasonable levels Nat Gas prices must stay down in comparison to diesel or this will not make it.
WPRT does not make engines. It make the Nat Gas control systems and tanks which managed the fuel for both LNG and CNG. The engines are still made by Ford in the case of a small truck and Cummins for the big trucks.
Nat. Gas transportation fuel is in the beginning stages of it life. WPRT has stated it hopes to make a profit in 2014. It's been losing money for years as it goes into volume productions.
This is not a computer company, it's heavy iron with a lot of up front costs to meet production. It could still be years until profitability we just don't know.