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Jarden Corp. Message Board

rockfordfiles2 11 posts  |  Last Activity: Apr 30, 2014 5:29 AM Member since: Oct 3, 2010
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  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 30, 2014 5:29 AM Flag

    An error was made on the sensory perceptions of dolphins. “...However they might be trained to detect (smell) hydraulic fluid then place a buoy in the general area on the surface. ...”

    Dolphins have no ability to smell, but they do have taste sensors (papillae).

    For more about dolphins, visit: The Dolphin Institute (TDI). Within it states: “...Studies have shown that dolphins can in fact detect the four primary taste qualities of salt, bitter, sweet, and sour, although sensitivity to these qualities seems to be about an order of magnitude less than human sensitivity. There is value in being able to detect the various chemicals in the water that are produced by biological organisms or by natural chemical processes. Large aggregations of prey species will leave or disperse chemical traces of their presence (such as excretory products) that may guide the dolphin toward that location. ...”

    The following is a bit gruesome. Could they detect the presence of human bodies from anything that rises from the depths?

    At TDI it states: “...Tursiops aduncus is found in the Indian Ocean ...”

    It might be worthwhile to take a 777 and sink it to depths characteristic of where the current search area is, release some trained dolphins or sea lions at some distance away to see if they are able to find the sunken aircraft. There should be a certain amount of hydraulic fluid and fuel within. The test 777 should also represent the expected destruction when crashing into the ocean. Remotely controlling it and actually crashing it might disclose, in addition to the intended plan of detecting it with dolphins, vulnerabilities of a remotely controlled aircraft. Perhaps, in the process, searchers will even find MH370 as a result.

    See: “United States Navy Marine Mammal Program”

    It has a photo of a sea lion using a locating pinger to attach a test line to a piece of test equipment.

    See also: “About Sea Lions” at sealsittersDATorg. Sea lions have all senses that we have.

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 29, 2014 7:58 AM Flag

    “I don't want the plane found...”

    It’s assumed you responded to this: “...As far as blame goes, that should be an issue AFTER the plane is found and forensic evidence leads to a rational conclusion. Don’t try to make non-existent intimations. ...”

    And also responded to this: “...It seems, some have suggested, that there are Boeing operatives that DO NOT want MH370 to be found. That is evident from replies posted that identify themselves as being part of Boeing, and others that appear to be. ...”

    There was some hyperbole in that statement because the types of responses on this m/b NEVER reply with a better original idea. Instead they seem to be here only to get their “kicks” out of finding ways to criticize without coming up with a better idea. That’s disgusting, but a far too common theme issuing from many screen names, not only here, but on other m/b’s.

    In summary, your reading comprehension socks. So does your sarcasm. Don’t feel bad. You’ve got lots of company here, in all probability with American public school learned, HS dropouts and sub-standard university educated with overpaid professors and university presidents. It’s all about the “money”, though, since foreigners pay higher (out of state) tuition and therefore are prized students that, on a competency basis, can’t compete solely because the English language is not their first one, meaning reduced communication skills. That’s a generality, but true on balance.

    No wonder Boeing hires so many foreigners, which, unfortunately right from the get-go, puts state-side employees at a disadvantage and, in all probability, held in disdain by managers at various levels with the power to hire and fire with state-siders the first to go. (We mustn’t appear discriminatory, now must we?). Yep! It’s all about the “money”.

    Will these facts be allowed to remain, or will they get censored (deleted) as factual statements that can’t be allowed. We can’t threaten this corrupt “money” stream, now can we?

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 29, 2014 7:53 AM Flag

    You have too much time on your hands: “Oh, it was BP not ARCO in the gulf oil blowout and would you like to take a guess as to how much volume of oil was coming out of that well? Hint: a whole lot more than 16 cubic feet.”

    First: BP had been referred to as British Petroleum. After the oil spill it reverted to BP because of the bad PR associated with British Petroleum. You are technically correct, but ARCO is a subsidiary of British Petroleum, for those of us who fill our tanks at their stations and remember their lack of consideration for the environments where they explore for oil. In Indonesia they had a blowout that ruined the habitability of a whole town through their recklessness.

    As usual, you overlooked the possibility of using dolphins to locate the aircraft. Many animals, including dolphins, have much higher sensory capabilities than man and what man can invent for detection. Further, they are far more mobile in the sea than any detector towed after a slow moving ship.

    Since we’re splitting hairs, you originally referred to 4000 cu ft, which is a cube 16 ft on a side, and not 16 cu ft.

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 28, 2014 2:06 PM Flag

    Don’t know if this might work. The US Navy could provide answers as far as using dolphins to locate MH370.

    Browse for this title: “Navy dolphins find torpedo lost for 130 years”

    Some accounts state dolphins can locate items and mark them with a buoy that floats to the surface. The depth may be too much for these sea creatures. However they might be trained to detect (smell) hydraulic fluid then place a buoy in the general area on the surface. Contact the U S Naval Institute for further information on their possible use to find MH370. It would seem that someone has already done so, but then again, maybe not.

    If these creatures can find a torpedo lost for 130 years there may be characteristics of a sunken aircraft that also could be detected by these creatures. This is a suggestion. Expert opinions required (contact USNI) on possible methods that could be employed using them. For sure they'l say "Yeh or "Ney".

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 28, 2014 6:51 AM Flag

    “...Hmm, we don't think using dye to spot fuel/fluid that would have a volume of 4000 cubic feet ...”

    That’s easy enough to test, and a lot cheaper than what’s going on now. They’re now talking maybe YEARS before this aircraft is located. As previously stated, dye dilution could be minimized by expelling it right next to the UV LED laser source.

    Oil type organics do not mix with water, unless biodegraded over a long period of time, so they would appear as plumes underwater coming from a source until they surface. Later clumps could be discovered in small amounts. The Gulf blowout of the Arco platform showed first as plumes, and later as clumps on shore. In fact they did discover a small oil slick in what they believe is where MH370 went down, but testing showed it was not from the aircraft. The method used to discover this was not given nor was the size. Perhaps they did discover it using UV techniques.

    As far as blame goes, that should be an issue AFTER the plane is found and forensic evidence leads to a rational conclusion. Don’t try to make non-existent intimations.

    By the way, where are you getting that 4,000 cf from? Assume the aircraft was out of fuel, and probably only hydraulic fluid remained. 4,000 cf is a cube about 16 ft on a side. As far as the tropical storm, that would only sweep away oil on or near the surface, and not affect leakage at a 15,000 ft depth. What should be looked for is a plume issuing from the vicinity that could be traced back to the source. Maybe some oil industry experts should be consulted with before using this to locate. They undoubtedly have refined such a technique. On an operation of this size and importance there should be no impediments to consulting outside those currently involved, as is the usual case with government bureaucracies.

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 27, 2014 3:30 PM Flag

    It seems, some have suggested, that there are Boeing operatives that DO NOT want MH370 to be found. That is evident from replies posted that identify themselves as being part of Boeing, and others that appear to be. Yes, technical errors have been made. But replies without a better alternate solution or a modification to what had been presented imply a desire that MH370 not be found by exaggerating “flaws” in the concept of fluorescence detection, or any others suggestions that could lead to a better understanding of how the aircraft was lost, and what could be done to find it.

    As previously mentioned, the search area has been narrowed. Instead of the Ocean Shield ping locator being dragged underwater to detect pings, since the battery of the black box has died, a similar locator, designed to detect fluorescence from fluid leaks from the downed aircraft could be deployed. The locator’s umbilical could incorporate a hose discharging the dye as it moves slowly in the search area, and a data link associated with the laser. This would conserve the amount of dye used to counter the exaggerated claims of a requirement to dye the whole search area, and then go in with UV detector(s), which would be totally unworkable due to interim dispersion. That is why at the outset critics of the concept of leak detection are suspected of being Boeing operatives charged with diffusing any possibly worthwhile suggestions. If you note the responses, you might agree.

    Incidentally, the light output of lasers has increased dramatically recently.

    These UV detectors are very sensitive to organic compounds when used in conjunction with a dye designed to produce a gain in the fluorescence of any organic compounds. One of the compounds, to detect such organics as hydraulic fluid or jet fuel that may be familiar to those reading this post, is Dye-Lite made by Tracerline. The oil industry operating in oceans uses dyes based on the same concept for those environments.

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 26, 2014 4:13 PM Flag

    “...And you have bought stock in what company that will furnish say 5 million gallons of dye? ...”

    Considering all the assets deployed, and the cost so far, that would be peanuts.

    It appears that you’re acquainted with the politicos you’ve mentioned. You might even “clue in” the Malaysian PM after buying stock in the company. You could reap a fortune and turn up a hero when MH370 is located using this technique. At this point the families of those lost would be quite happy to overlook your conflict of interest. Governments involved would surely participate in a cover-up to help you walk away with million$. In our current environment of financial fraud, with participation by most politicians and major industry managements, that would be a cake-walk to get away with.

    Pinger narrowing of the search area through overlapping circles has pinpointed a location. Your dye volume is wildly overstated. Assume you hope MH370 will be found soon, or a search in this area is discounted for other possible scenarios, like in Wazooistan, as you’ve suggested.

    You’re assessment of survivability of accumulators in ocean water does’nt take into account the type of stainless steel used in this type of pressure vessel unless of more recent carbon fiber, which is stronger and lighter. Corrosion IS a problem with some types of stainless in salt water. Any breach would quickly expand to allow more fluid to escape, if not in the accumulator, then in other parts of the hydraulic system.

    As far as using an airborne locator system, that’s not the only possibility, but could be a faster way to narrow down the location, after which the Ocean Shield could deploy a UV detection device dragged to further narrow down the search, either concurrently or when aircraft detect fluorescence.

    “... OH be sure to cc McNearney so he can upgrade all BA aircraft”. Huh? What’s that all about? You’re not making any sense. But maybe you could contact McNearney rather than explain it here, or contact CNN.

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 26, 2014 8:32 AM Flag

    Let’s throw another one out there to you. As you said: “...while a small amount of hydraulic fluid might be released, ...”

    Things like hydraulic fluid, when in contact with a dye, will fluoresce in relatively dilute concentrations approved by environmental agencies. Perhaps pelagic OceanDye could be used to detect what rises to the surface by current black light airborne lasers with scanning capability and computerized feedback on any surface hydraulic fluid found . The oil industry uses these in ocean environments. For that matter, these are also used in subsea environments and could be incorporated into submersibles to locate any fluid carried by the currents which would point towards the source.

    Check CNN. They might provide you with the info you need. ;)

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 9:28 PM Flag

    Yep. You’re correct again. So how do you explain the lack of any debris? And aren’t the landing gear hydraulically raised and lowered? Hydraulic systems used to have a vessel in the hydraulic system designed go avoid jerky movements of the components attached to them called an accumulator, and it had other functions. If they’re still used on modern aircraft they wouldn’t survive 15,000 ft depths, resulting in a hydraulic fluid oil slick. The specific gravity of hydraulic fluid would cause it to float to the surface.

  • Reply to

    MH370 Focal Point of Ping Locations

    by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM
    rockfordfiles2 rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 3:07 PM Flag

    There’s partial agreement with both of you. This was just thrown out there to see the response. However, characterizing Capt. Wood as wearing a tinfoil hat is a bit extreme. But it is utterly amazing that some of this “alien” #$%$ gets such a wide following. Anyway it’s all about the “money” flowing into the hands of those who know they can profit by creating science fiction believable enough to create a following.

    It is strange that NO pieces of the aircraft have been found. That indicates, as Capt. Wood surmised, that when MH370 hit the water it would have torn the wings off. The empty fuel tanks would not have survived intact. That’s the only thing that might have provided floatation. For the body to have sunk completely intact doesn’t make any sense. There are many things inside that should have floated to the surface. If it was intact the water pressure on the way down to 15,000 feet would have crushed the cabin.

    Also, the statement: “...the 40 K feet is no big deal- and not confirmed...” is not correct. Reports have indicated an altitude of 45,000 feet. You are technically correct that the cell phone indication was a “handshake”, and not a message. That was written in haste.

    As far as the claims that depressurization could not have happened quickly, and if this turns out to be some nefarious act, or a case of a cabin breach, how do we know that fast depressurization was not accomplished manually? If this is possible and did happen there need to be design modifications and/or security measures to prevent it. It has been reported that the pilot was extremely angered over the conviction of a friend that could indicate a motive to engage in a plot to take the plane down. However, there doesn’t seem to have been enough time between that event and a well thought out plot to take the aircraft down.

    Just to let you know, none of the “thumbs down” originated from this screen name. These were weird assessments of what you wrote.

  • rockfordfiles2 by rockfordfiles2 Apr 25, 2014 4:58 AM Flag

    See: “Flight 370 and the Flight Recorders: The Truth”

    Links within lead to some graphics. The graphics describe intersecting circles where the pings were heard, thus pin pointing a likely location.

    Mark Wood has the following credentials:

    Captain Mark Wood is a retired U.S. Navy Captain, P-3 Mission Commander and Tactical Coordinator and former Ocean Engineering Instructor at Florida Atlantic University, Department of Ocean Engineering. His statements are believable due to his flying experience.

    Captain Wood stated at another link that MH370 was a night flight. The passengers, when it ascended to 45,000 ft, would probably have been asleep. The oxygen system could have been turned off making them unconscious then they would have died rather quickly. Afterward, according to what is known so far, the aircraft then plunged below 5000 ft. allowing the pilots to survive with their separate oxygen supply. He also states that there may have been a struggle, because of a cell phone message sent by the co-pilot.

    Using the above info, do your own due diligence with your browser.

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