General Motors Company Message Board

"You joke, but look into it."

Holy fishbowl Batman, you're right. There does seem to be some connection:

" The 928, rounded but not curvaceous, with its unique telephone-dial wheels, looked like nothing else on the road -- except perhaps the AMC Pacer, a similarity Tony Lapine later acknowledged without shame. (Some sources suggest that the 928 was inspired by the Pacer, but based on the timing of the two designs, we consider that unlikely.)"

Here's some trivia back at ya...did you know that Tony Lapine also designed the 1963 Corvette including the famous split window coupe that was panned when built, but became an all time Corvette classic?

Small_town_chicago:

You're clearly jumping off the Yahoo article titled "5 Big Retailers That Will Be Gone in 5 Years". They've made a compelling case for JCP, Sears, and Radio Shack. You've removed Staples and Barnes & Noble from that list and added GM and McDonalds. What is your reasoning behind adding these two?

"I wasn't but you do realize the Pacer was the inspiration for the awesome Porsche 928 and 928S... cars I've always dug."

I can see some similarity, but when Ferdinand Porsche was looking for his next best design, do you think he went to his designers and said "I just LOVE the Pacer, make me one like that."?

"The American workforce is second to none and can take on anyone ."

Normally workforces are evaluated based on wage/benefit structure, pertinent education, productivity, adaptability, flexibility, etc. What in your opinion makes the American workforce stand out over other countries? Why would a company want to put a new plant/business in the U.S. as opposed to another country?

"I've also seen this recently with some of my friends----long time foreign import owners now buying GM and/or Ford-----in Southern Calif, land of imports."

Supor:

I'm very hopeful that the market issues caused by MAllen on the west coast are temporary in nature.

"How about redesigning something we can see out of."

I'll bet you were a fan of the AMC Pacer. Plenty of visibility in those babies. What you saved in fuel, you spent in window cleaner.

"Probably not before I leave for work, but it doesn't matter.....we've seen what the govt has been able to sell and those proceeds doesn't nearly add up to even the known bailout costs of $49B plus the $42B tax breaks = $91B"

I'll save you some time and your employer some money....it's not there. Why? Because it's not a debt. There's another poster whose name I've forgotten (large since on ignore) that was often telling GM to pay back the government. I didn't bother with him because he wouldn't get it, but you will.

Back before the IPO, sometime around April, 2009, the government and GM decided to convert most of the TARP funds owed to equity and the remainder of around $7 billion in debt. GM paid off the remaining $7 billion in debt with cash transfers and the remaining equity amounted to about 60% ownership of the company. At that moment, GM no longer 'owed' the government a penny because the equity ownership was valued at EXACTLY what GM still owed. Key word is EXACTLY. I assume it was valued at $42B/900 million shares (there will be some difference based on the preferred shares awarded, but let's keep it simple).

In other words, the shares the government got were worth something less than $46.66 per share. The government could have chosen to sell them at that point to a private equity concern, hedge fund, etc. but chose not to....it turns out that that was a big mistake on their part, not GM's.

As we know, the IPO price was $33 per share, so the UST's decision not to sell was a mistake at that point, shocking I know.

But, that's why GM doesn't owe the UST a penny, poor decisions by the UST are causing the tax payers deficit. Blame them, not GM. Look at it this way, if you bought Toyota stock at $120 and it went down to $100, would Toyota owe you $20 per share? Of course not, same situation here.

"GM has most assuredly NOT paid back the taxpayers."

Most debts you can find on the balance sheet. Can you point out where this one is?

"....never put most of your entire savings into company stock from the place where you work."

By all accounts, Akerson is worth over $200 million. I don't think $600K is going to be a problem.

"How hard would it really be for Obama's boys to just GIVE him the money to buy the stock "

I'm sure that's what is going on, the government, a minority holder, is just writing him checks in order to buy stock. Jeez. I wouldn't worry about what Akerson is doing with his money. He's not exactly a novice at investing. He came from one of the most lucrative private equity companies in the world.

"You seem to have a bit of an attitude about this, Wngr."

Just having a little fun with Web. No malice intended. :-)

Continuing...
So, with these destinations in mind, suppose you were one of the many people living in LA with relatives that were guests of the state in the Folsom State Prison. Let’s say you owned a $62,000 Tesla S with the 60 kWh motor with a range of 230 miles fully charged.

Starting out in LA on your trip to visit Aunt Bertha doing 10-20 years in Folsom, your first recharging stop would be in Coalinga, a trip of 202 miles. Be careful not to use any unnecessary accessories like air conditioning because you have only a 28 mile safety margin. Upon your arrival and after you get plugged in, you might want visit the mental hospital or grab a Whopper at the BK on W. Polk Street.

Leaving Coalinga, you would think that your next stop would be Folsom, however, this leg is 218 miles and 30 minutes at the supercharging station only gets you a half charge of 115 miles. So, you have to go out of your way to Gilroy (just follow the garlic smell) BUT, don’t take I-5 because that’s 121 miles and you only have 115 range. You have to take CA-25 which is 112 miles (MAYBE you’ll make it) but it will take you another 20 minutes.

Leaving Gilroy (I recommend a brief stop at a truck stop to shower the smell of garlic off) you have a trip of 170 miles to Folsom, unfortunately, you can’t make it because of the 115 miles range. This will necessitate an overnight stop in Stockton (109 miles) and covertly plugging in your car to the wall outlet in the Motel 6 (they’ll leave the light on for you). Then in the morning, you can make Folsom (60 miles) no sweat into the loving arms of Aunt Bertha.

What could possibly go wrong. Repeat the above to get home.

"Tesla has already begun putting in supercharging stations on major freeways in California and in the Northeast."

I was interested in the whole concept of Tesla’s charging stations there in CA (even though I would have to drive 2,300 miles to get to one) so I looked the stations up on the Tesla web site. I became even more interested when I saw the quote “Plus, Superchargers are located at places you’ll actually want to stop…”. Now, I’m just about hooked.

So, I looked up the cities where the charging stations were (and their main attractions). Here they are (all in CA): Folsom (prison), Gilroy (Garlic Festival), Lebec (population 1,468, 72% of which are high school graduates, no other attractions listed), Coalinga (Main industries are agriculture, oil, and incarceration, yet another state prison. Also, in Coalinga they have a mental hospital built specifically to house sexually violent criminals…no mention if tours are available), Barstow (home to the Marine Corps Logistics Base, and a large rail classification yard belonging to the BNSF Railway.), and Hawthorne (actually a few interesting things here…SpaceX, Century Media Records, and Nuclear Blast, another record label).

(To be continued)

"Nothing little about it. Toyota is still there, and has never left...."

Per Wikipedia...

" GM pulled out of the venture in June 2009, and several months later Toyota announced plans to pull out by March 2010. The closure was opposed by city officials, including Fremont Mayor Bob Wasserman, who lobbied to keep NUMMI in the city. However, at 9.40am on April 1, 2010, the plant produced its last car, a red Toyota Corolla S believed to be destined for a museum in Japan. Production of Corollas in North America moved to Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada's assembly plant in Cambridge, Ontario."

(Continuing)

And what about the business model? How much would the public be willing to pay to cover all of the above costs as well as a reasonable return? The only market would be those who are traveling distances that exceed their "standard" battery's range. Those traveling on the expressway only 2-3 exits wouldn't be in the market. Those with Volts wouldn't be in the market. Those with Tesla's wouldn't be in the market (assuming they weren't going more than the 200 miles range). At the end of the day, how many Leafs are there? Aren't electric cars destined to be commuter cars for the mid term at least? And wouldn’t someone contemplating a long trip be likely to take their ICE equipped car on a long trip?

If there is any market here at all, I think it would rely on fast charge capability both in the car and the charging stations. A similar technology already exists in manufacturing plants for fork lift trucks, and it works. We used to have three large batteries (costing $20K each) for each fork truck; one for charging, one for in use, and one cooling (which prolonged the battery life). With the advent of ‘fast charge’ stations, the battery can be charged between shifts eliminating the need for two of the batteries. Of course these are different types of batteries, but the technology needs to expand to lithium ion batteries.

Clearly there are insurmountable problems with creating a common battery that all OEM's would adopt as many have already pointed out. But there are other issues as well that Web is ignoring. For instance, who pays for these charging stations? As many astute observers already know, the margins on electric vehicles are thin to non-existent, so I seriously doubt that the OEM's are going to put up the capital.

Do we honestly believe the existing oil companies will do it?? They have more reasons that anyone else NOT to do it. The Federal government? We all know that Web hates any kind of government money subsidizing private industry (although it would be a better use than a lot of the money spent as "stimulus").

Maybe a new entrepreneur that has instance access to the billions necessary to buy the land (premium land next to freeway exits), charging equipment, infrastructure upgrades for utilities, and buildings in addition to an initial complement of batteries. And as we know the batteries have a finite life, so what about when he had to exchange a new battery for one that is on its last legs, would he try to charge the customer a premium? And would this type of investment act as a deterrent to new battery development as a result of having to replace the entire battery inventory with the new technology?

(To be continued)

Cheblammo:

LOL. I did say 'hyperbola' didn't I? Believe me I know the difference, but I was helping my nephew with his Calculus this afternoon, and well, I used the wrong word. Sorry about that.

Mullah:

First of all, it's remarkable that Tesla is even still in business. I give them all the credit in the world for that. But I am waiting anxiously for their first quarter financials...it would be remarkable to be turning a profit..

Their past past 2 quarters have had net losses of ($90M) and ($110M). In 2011 they lost $254M on sales of $204M, and in 2012 they lost $396M on sales of $413M. They are deep in cash burn using free cash flow of ($505M) in 2012, and ($312M) in 2011. Last quarter alone they used ($101M). Stockholder's equity dropped by about 50% last year.

We'll see. Mr. Elon Musk is a little prone to hyperbola. But like I say, they have done a remarkable thing. I worry about one thing though. I think we can all agree that the Tesla vehicles are in a niche market. They have a limited number of people that are in their market space. What happens when those people get their's? Is this a car that people would replace after a couple of years, or 5 years? Time will tell.

You all might want to take it easy on Web on the buying of repair parts at the junk yard or on Ebay. Of course I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet that he has a bigger portfolio than almost all of you. And there's nothing wrong with being a little frugal in your working years before retirement.

My wife and I have always lived a little below our means and at this point in our lives, are secure. Money is not a concern.

Just saying....

" I kept purchasing more as the price dropped. Made on last large purchase in April of 2009. I ended up with $125K face value in bonds for a cost of ~$25K. Post BK I had over $50K in stock and warrants and have remained in the black even when the stock was under $20."

There are lots of hedge funds/private equity companies that follow that model. With the Delphi bankruptcy several companies made A LOT of money, namely Silver Pointe Capital and Elliot Management among others. It's a bit risky, but the payoffs are big when it works.

That kid, Trey Burke, has been doing that kind of stuff all year. He was probably 10' outside the 3 point line.