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Edited Transcript of 00007453.LU earnings conference call or presentation 13-Mar-20 9:00am GMT

Full Year 2019 RTL Group SA Earnings Call

Mar 13, 2020 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of RTL Group SA earnings conference call or presentation Friday, March 13, 2020 at 9:00:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Andrew Buckhurst

RTL Group SA - SVP of IR

* Björn Bauer

RTL Group SA - CFO

* Elmar Heggen

RTL Group SA - Deputy CEO, COO & Executive Director

* Thomas Rabe

RTL Group SA - CEO & Director

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Conference Call Participants

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* Adrien de Saint Hilaire

BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division - VP & Head of Media Research

* Annick Tonie Maas

Exane BNP Paribas, Research Division - Analyst

* Catherine T O'Neill

Citigroup Inc, Research Division - Director, VP and Analyst

* Christophe Van der Kelen

* Conor O'Shea

Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Head of Media Sector

* Julien Roch

Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst

* Lisa Yang

Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Equity Analyst

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Presentation

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Operator [1]

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Dear ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the analyst conference call of RTL Group regarding the presentation of the full year 2019 results. At our customer's request, this conference will be recorded. (Operator Instructions) I may now hand you over to Andrew, who will lead you for this conference. Please go ahead, sir.

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Andrew Buckhurst, RTL Group SA - SVP of IR [2]

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Thank you very much, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us for our annual meeting covering the results for the full year 2019. The speaker -- or the speakers for today's presentation are Thomas Rabe, the group CEO; Elmar Heggen, our COO; and Björn Bauer, our CFO.

Looking at the agenda on Slide 2, this covers the areas that will be covered today by the management team, and with that, I now hand over to Thomas.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [3]

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Yes. Thank you, Andrew, and good morning from me as well. Slide 3 highlights the strategic progress made in 2019. In the group's 2 main TV markets of Germany and France, we have gained in both audience and advertising market shares. Both Fremantle and our streaming platforms have reported strong revenue growth, giving us confidence that the next phase of investment in these businesses.

And finally, we have continued to pursue new alliances and partnerships in technology, content development and advertising sales. The progress made across these 3 strategic priorities has contributed to another strong financial year as you can see on Slide 3.

The group is in a good shape. Profitability is strong. We have low financial leverage and clear set of growth opportunities. Revenue came in at EUR 6.65 billion, up 2.2%, with underlying revenue up 3.2%. EBITDA pre restructuring was above our market guidance at EUR 1.16 billion, resulting in a margin of 17.4%. The group's profit for the year rose 10% to EUR 864 million.

On the next slide, we show what this means for the ordinary dividend payout. There are no adjustments to the reported net result, meaning that the proposed dividend of EUR 4 per share resulted in a dividend payout of 81%, which is in line with the new dividend policy. Based on the average share price for 2019, this translates into a dividend yield of 8.7%.

I will now hand over to Björn, who will take you through the group's financials.

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Björn Bauer, RTL Group SA - CFO [4]

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Thank you, Thomas, and good morning, everyone. I'll start on Slide 7. Group revenue on a full year basis was up by 2.2% at EUR 6.65 billion, thanks to higher revenue from Fremantle and our digital activities.

Organic revenue, which is at constant exchange rate, scoped and adjusted for the wind down of StyleHaul was up by 3.2%. The positive foreign exchange impact amounted to EUR 49 million in 2019. The group's operating cost base rose 2.9% year-on-year, mainly as a result of higher program and streaming investments.

The group's net debt at the end of 2019 was EUR 384 million, resulting in a net debt-to-EBITDA ratio of 0.27x.

Looking now at the items below EBITDA down to the net profit on Slide 8. Our net financial expense totaled EUR 5 million and is made up of a net interest charge of EUR 32 million and a positive EUR 27 million from financial results other than interest.

We've also recognized a noncash impairment against our associate Atresmedia of EUR 50 million. The weak local advertising market was reflected in the share price development.

The group's tax charge came in at EUR 292 million, 5% higher than last year. The group's profit attributable to RTL Group shareholders increased by 12.9% or EUR 86 million to EUR 754 million, thanks to higher gains on disposals and a lower overall impairment charge. Earnings per share were EUR 4.91.

Looking now at Slide 9, the cash flow statement. The group's EBITDA to free cash flow was strong, reaching 105% in 2019. The acquisitions of subsidiaries reflect the Lagardère TV assets and Yospace. This has partially been offset by the disposals of Universum Film, Clip and the final payment received following the sale of the football club, Girondins de Bordeaux. The higher cash conversion rate in 2019 is mainly due to the delivery of some large drama production, which had negatively impacted the cash conversion in 2018.

I will now hand over to Elmar for the business review, which starts with Mediengruppe RTL Deutschland.

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Elmar Heggen, RTL Group SA - Deputy CEO, COO & Executive Director [5]

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Thank you, Björn. I'll start on Slide 11. As mentioned by Thomas, in 2019, Mediengruppe RTL Deutschland outperformed the TV advertising market and grew its audience share. Part of RTL Deutschland's outperformance of the market is due to Ad Alliance. This sales grouping allows advertisers access to cross-media campaigns at scale and with clear performance targets.

Overall, reported revenue came in 1.8% lower than last year.

On an organic basis, however, once the sale of Universum Films had been considered, revenue was stable year-on-year. With investments into both the program grid and TV Now, our German streaming service, EBITDA came in at EUR 663 million, resulting in a margin of 29%.

In terms of audiences, our family of channels reported a combined audience share of 28.1%, in our target group, 14 to 59. This is an increase of 0.6 percentage points compared to last year. And has come mainly from our main channel RTL TV. This is the first time since 2011 that the RTL channel has increased its full year audience share. We are hopeful that this positive trend we have seen will continue into 2020, even against the sports heavy summer schedule of the public TV broadcast channels.

Looking ahead, the main focus of management will be the boosting of growth of TV Now. German section will form an important part of the offer with 11 series planned for the service. The Europa League will also be a key program element for 3 seasons from 2021.

Moving to Groupe M6 on the next slide. The main highlight of the year was the acquisition of Lagardère TV asset, with (inaudible) TV. This has significantly strengthened our French family of channels and digital services and offers significant upside through synergies. The total audience share, including Gulli, amounted to 22.8% with the historic channels stable overall year-on-year. The net advertising market in France was estimated to be down 1.5% in 2019 as the strikes at the end of the year resulted in a weak last fourth quarter.

Reported revenue for Groupe M6 was slightly down by 1.8% to EUR 1.46 billion, while organic revenue was stable.

EBITDA came in at EUR 287 million, up 4.4% year-on-year. The group's priorities for 2020 includes the successful launch, along with its partners of the streaming service, Salto and the full integration of Gulli.

Let's now turn on to RTL Nederland on Page #13, Slide 13. In the TV advertising market that we estimate to be slightly up year-on-year, RTL lost market share. The combined Dutch family of channels delivered an audience share of 29.8%, down compared to 2018. However, subscriber growth of 29% at Videoland and slightly higher platform fees helped to offset the lower TV advertising revenue.

Overall, RTL finished the year with revenue down 1.6% at EUR 496 million. EBITDA was down almost 24% at EUR 54 million as the weak advertising revenue performance and the continued investment in streaming impacted the results.

Let's now turn to our content businesses Fremantle on Slide 14. Revenue increased 12.6% to EUR 1.79 billion in 2019, with organic growth at 10.3%, in line with the guidance given. The slightly lower organic growth rates adjust for the positive exchange rate effects of EUR 37 million. The higher revenue is reflected in an improved EBITDA. This rose 11.8% to EUR 142 million, resulting in an almost stable margin of 7.9%.

Looking ahead into 2020, over the course of the full year, we expect another year of improvement in both revenue and EBITDA. This is on the back of a strong drama pipeline, led by shows such as the American Gods, season 3, a 2-part miniseries for BBC2, a 4-part series for ITV and new dramas from (inaudible).

As a further demonstration that European content can travel, Fremantle have just sold their 6-part French drama, The Last Wave to the BBC, ZDF and Atresmedia, for linear and streaming audiences. This follows a deal with Starz Play as Starz branded OTT service for 3 high-end dramas exclusively across 20 countries. And just last month, 1 of Fremantle's Italian businesses signed a multiyear development and production partnership with Sky Studios. This deal will focus on the creation and development of high-end global drama with international talent behind and in front of the camera. Sky Studios, will, for their part, provide development funding for a minimum of 3 shows alongside the commitment to produce.

I will now hand you back to Thomas, who will take you through the strategy update before finishing with the outlook statement.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [6]

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Yes, many thanks, Elmar. Let's turn to Slide 16. Over the next slides, I will set out some of the key strategic goals and ambitions for the group over the coming years.

Starting on Slide 16. RTL strategy is built upon 3 pillars. First, strengthening our core businesses; and secondly, boosting the growth of our streaming services and global content business Fremantle; and thirdly, fostering alliances and partnerships in the European media industry.

Our aim is to maximize consumers' attraction to a broad variety of video content across all devices. Our national streaming champions are designed to complement our leading families of channels making our content available wherever and whenever the consumer wants while attracting new and younger audiences. And we want, obviously, better monetization for our advertising and content via personalization.

Looking at core in a bit more detail on Slide 17. We will continue to strengthen our family of TV channels to address the increased audience fragmentation. In recent years, RTL families of channels have been enhanced by the addition of digital channels with clearly defined profiles, including Nitro, RTL Plus, Vox Up, 6ter and RTL Z. In 2019, our Groupe M6 acquired Lagardère's TV business to complement its offering for families and to strengthen its overall position in the French media market, both in TV advertising and in digital.

To finance the growth initiatives that I will come to shortly, we have started a wide-ranging review to reallocate resources. This review will include continued portfolio management and cost reductions. The group is committed to an ongoing investment in content, as demonstrated by the more than EUR 3.5 billion invested each year and is continually looking at ways to develop and own new hit formats or to invest in premium content.

Outside of Fremantle, we have created the Format Creation Group, FC group to develop nonscripted formats exclusively for our broadcasters and streaming services. FC Group is jointly financed by RTL Deutschland, Groupe M6 and RTL Nederlands and will focus on the development of factual entertainment formats and reality shows with the IP owned by RTL Group.

Moving on to growth, Slide 18. RTL Group will continue to focus on building national streaming champions in the European countries where it has leading families of TV channels. These streaming services are positioned as complementary to global services, such as Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+, by leveraging the group's competitive advantage in local programming. The strategy is being rolled out either through stand-alone services as TV Now in Germany and Videoland in the Netherlands or via national partnerships, such as Salto in France.

These stand-alone services will adopt a hybrid business model, combining a free advertising-funded offer with a premium pay content bundle that offers RTL Group's TV programs, both live and on-demand, with licensed content from third parties and exclusive originals.

And our ambitions, the nonlinear world are high as demonstrated by the new set of targets, which we set out here. These targets are only for the group's Dutch and German streaming services, and cover the period to 2025.

In terms of subscribers, the group now expects to have between 5 million and 7 million subscriber -- paying subscribers by the end of 2025.

Accordingly, streaming revenue is expected to reach at least EUR 500 million by 2025. The subscriber growth is being driven by a significant boost in content spend compared to the actual amount in 2019, and to grow this by more than 4x to reach approximately EUR 350 million in 2025.

Given the need to a front-load content marketing and tech spend, the group expects EBITDA breakeven and slight a full year profitability in 2025. This is an ambitious but we believe achievable objective given our leading market positions and firm focus on local content.

Moving on to the next slide, 19. In terms of advertising technology, our SmartClip technology serves commercials in the right Internet-enabled televisions, smartphones, tablets or computers at the right time. The combined conventional direct advertising campaigns is what is known as programmatic advertising.

With SmartClip, we are creating an open ad-tech platform tailored for the needs of European broadcasters and streaming services. RTL Group's Tech platform for its streaming service currently being built by Groupe M6 and it's tech unit Bedrock. Bedrock will initially serve the French subscription service title, the partnership of TF1, M6 and France Television due to be launched in 2020 and Videoland in the Netherlands.

As announced this morning, RTL Group has agreed to become a 50% shareholder of Bedrock, which will be European platform open to third parties.

And finally, within the area of data, the open log-in standard NetID was developed by the European NetID foundation, initiated by Mediengruppe RTL Deutschland, ProSiebenSat1 and United Internet. The standard offers single sign-on which can be used on numerous German websites by 35 million users. Our targets are very simple. We're aiming for leading positions in both advertising and streaming technologies to use data more extensively.

Turning to Slide 20. The group's last focus area on the growth is around Fremantle and digital content. With Fremantle, we aim to further strengthen its abilities in concentration and production by exploring all possible ways to develop and own new hit formats. At the same time, and just as importantly, Fremantle's existing brands are being carefully managed, refreshed and nurtured to ensure that they remain long-running. And we will, of course, carry on investing in the high-end drama productions to further develop Fremantle scripted strategy, which now represents 23% of Fremantle's total revenue.

Divimove is a leading digital studio and home for digital content creators in Europe. They represent more than 1,300 social influencers in 8 European countries. Currently generate, on average, 34 billion online video views per month. We have put in place a growth plan to significantly expand Divimove's capabilities and talent management, production of short-form video content, advertising sales and technology and data.

I'll now turn to Slide 21 on alliances. RTL has been and will remain active with respect to alliances. We believe partnership opportunities based on the philosophy of funding resources of European broadcasters, establish open and neutral platforms are necessary to compete with the U.S. studios and tech giants. We see partnership opportunities in 3 areas: advertising technology, streaming technology and international advertising sales.

In technology, wherever -- with the advertising and streaming, we're exploring multiple forms of partnerships and software licensing to partial ownership options.

In terms of international ad sales, RTL AdConnect already works with several partners, including ITV in the U.K. and RAI in Italy. Thanks to these partnerships, RTL Group is one of the only media companies in Europe that can offer advertisers pan-European TV and digital video campaigns.

Another example is Ad Alliance in Germany, the only sales house in Germany that can offer -- and offers complex campaigns across all media from a single point of contact.

RTL Group is also part of Bertelsmann Content Alliance, which was launched in 2019, along with other Bertelsmann divisions, like BMG, Gruner, Jahr and Random House to develop content and use the talent within the group across the various media platforms.

Within Germany alone, this content alliance invest more than EUR 2 billion annually in original content.

I will now take you through the group's outlook statement for 2020, as outlined on Slide 22. RTL Group expects 2020 to be another challenging year for commercial television advertising, especially in the year with major sport events that will mostly be broadcast on public channels.

The recent COVID-19 outbreak is also presenting many companies with unexpected challenges. At RTL Group we already see the first cancellations of advertising bookings and impact on productions but the first quarter will be broadly stable and in line with our expectations.

We are taking all appropriate measures to protect our people and to protect our businesses. We will continue to invest in our businesses. We will not cut into the substance of our businesses, and we will stick to our streaming boost plans as just presented.

Importantly, in times of crisis, including COVID-19, television viewing is increasing as is streaming. The following outlook does not reflect the COVID-19 outbreak as it is currently too early to quantify its impact on RTL Group's results.

From this basis, RTL Group expects organic revenue growth for the fiscal year 2020 of between 2% and 3%. This revenue guidance excludes any impact from foreign exchange movements and changes in scope.

Within this over pictured, RTL Group plans on stable to slightly down television advertising revenue. Fremantle, the group's content division will continue to benefit from the growing drama pipeline, and we, therefore, expect revenue to grow between 4% and 6% with EBITDA once again progressing.

In terms of EBITDA, RTL Group currently expects the group's adjusted EBITDA before additional streaming startup losses to be broadly stable. After these startup losses, adjusted EBITDA is expected to be down by up to 7%, with the group delivering at least EUR 1.075 billion in adjusted EBITDA. This brings us to the end of the presentation. Thanks for your attention, and we're now happy to take your questions.

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Questions and Answers

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Operator [1]

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(Operator Instructions) The first question is from Annick Maas of Exane BNP Paribas.

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Annick Tonie Maas, Exane BNP Paribas, Research Division - Analyst [2]

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My first question is with regards to your streaming investment plan. If you please could break it up as to how much is going to be coming from Germany? And how much is coming from the Netherlands? My second one is with regards to the virus, you mentioned that you've seen some impact. Could you just maybe give us a bit more clarity in which markets has the impact been, which advertising categories have cut their investment? And then thirdly, just a clarification. So you mentioned Q1 TV ad market is pretty stable. I assume that is from Germany.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [3]

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The first point on the streaming guidance. We're not breaking down the guidance by country as the same way as other companies don't break down the guidance by country. As I said, 5 million to 7 million subscribers for Germany and the Netherlands. We will add the subscriber target for France in Salto when the service launches. On coronavirus, as I said, Q1 limited impact, limited cancellations, most cancellations in the areas of travel and tourism and live entertainment. Some cancellations in the areas of luxury goods and automotive, but small-scale at this stage. In Germany, we expect RTL to be flat in advertising in the first quarter, outperforming the market. The same applies to M6 with and without the Gulli consolidation impact. And we have a similar pattern in other countries like, for example, the Netherlands. Q2 is much more, much harder to read. Again, all I'm going to tell you today is based on facts and not based on speculations. We don't see significant cancellations for Q2 at this stage. But bear in mind that the advertising booking behavior of our customers has become shorter and shorter-term over the last years. And therefore, the reliability of bookings even 4 to 6 weeks out is limited, in particular in terms of crisis. What we believe is happening is that our customers are looking at different types of scenarios on the impact of the coronavirus on their business, and we'll adjust their cost base accordingly, advertising are, I mean, important investments, of course, for our customers, but are also, I mean, soft costs in times of crisis. And can be adjusted within limits, of course, because we have contractual agreements and annual agreements and commitments with our customers at relatively short notice. But as I said, based on facts, limited cancellations so far.

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Annick Tonie Maas, Exane BNP Paribas, Research Division - Analyst [4]

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Great. Can I just ask one more question. I think at the 9 months, you gave a VOD number, which I didn't find out in full year release, maybe I'm just -- I couldn't just find -- If you could give us that number, that would be great? Because I think you just give a streaming number side as opposed to (inaudible) that you also include I mean, it ...

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [5]

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I'm not sure. I'm sorry, you're very difficult to understand. I don't know whether it's your phone or whether it's our phones, probably yours. If you could just repeat, I'm not sure I understood what you are looking for.

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Annick Tonie Maas, Exane BNP Paribas, Research Division - Analyst [6]

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AVOD number that you gave in the 9 months press release, AVOD number, revenue number, which I couldn't find in the full year release?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [7]

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Yes. Well, the VOD revenue in the first -- in the full year 2019 was EUR 135 million. But that's streaming services only, right? That is Videoland and TV Now and the total number of video, including in-stream video and the -- like on different platforms is EUR 266 million. We actually provide this in our press release, you want to look at this first page press release, streaming revenue and TV Now and Videoland, EUR 135 million, up 46.7%. Yes?

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Annick Tonie Maas, Exane BNP Paribas, Research Division - Analyst [8]

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It was just with reference to the one that you gave in the 9 months (inaudible)

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [9]

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Yes, that's right. We've slightly changed the definition because we want to make sure that the revenue numbers we provide you for streaming, correspond to the subscribers. And the number of EUR 135 million fully corresponds to the number of subscribers of 1.44 million for Germany and Netherlands combined at the end of 2019, okay?

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Operator [10]

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The next question is from Julien Roch of Barclays.

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Julien Roch, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst [11]

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Yes. Hopefully, you can hear me. I might have a bad line, like Annick, because actually, I have been working for home these days. So coming back on COVID-19, some people can't read press release. The answer you gave to Annick on saying that it was limited cancellation, mostly travel and a few tourism, luxury, and Q1 flat. I know it's very early days and nobody knows how it's going to -- how long it's going to last, and the impact will be different country by country. But to try to help us to some scenarios, if you could give us some, I don't know, some weekly color on 1 country. I mean, the most impacted country for you. I don't know whether it is France, Netherlands or Germany, but kind of what was the growth before? What's the worst week looking like, so we can run some scenarios? A bit more color, that would be great. That's the first question. The second one is on operating profit, down as much as minus 7% so if you could give us a bit maybe a narrower range? Is it minus 3% to minus 7% and explain what drives this range? Is it only the number of subscribers? Or is there anything else? That's my second question. And then the last one is, if I look at your strategic priority, one of them is alliances. And there's a couple of slides on that, but the most obvious one on is with Prosieben and merging RTL Now and Joyn in Germany. So why is this not happening?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [12]

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Okay, very good. Listen, on COVID, again, what I can tell you, to be more precise is that the total volume of cancellations so far across our footprint is EUR 8 million. Which is, frankly, fairly limited, given that our total advertising revenue per annum is approximately EUR 3.2 billion and that's what we see. I gave you the sectors or you call it the sectors which are most effective, and I think they're pretty obvious. Everything beyond that, to be honest, is pure speculation, and I don't want to participate in speculation. I communicate the fact I see, nobody knows how this virus is going to play out. Nobody knows what the lockdown of countries fully or partly will mean for advertising spend. What we're seeing is a significant pickup in TV consumption. We also see a significant pickup in streaming and consumption, TV consumption, primarily around news and magazines. Which is an area of significant strength of, for example, RTL Germany based on all the statistics and market reviews available. RTL's credibility in news is at least at par with the public broadcasters. And as I said, we see significant pickup. So in terms of fundamentals, call it i.e. TV viewing and TV consumption, the sale price of streaming, the impact of COVID is positive. The question is how to monetize. On streaming is pretty clear, monetization is increasingly via subscription. On television, it's primarily the advertising. And we've looked, obviously, at the sectors, composition of our advertising revenue by sector and have started to make a first estimate on which sectors could potentially be most affected. We also looked at 2009 and what happened in 2009, who canceled and when and when did we see first signs of recovery. Honestly, I don't think that the financial crisis of 2009 can be compared to the coronavirus of 2020. First because it's of a completely different nature. And secondly, because of our business in 2020 is a very different one than in 2009. The competitive landscape is a very different one. And therefore, as I said, everything I'd tell you today is based on fact and not based on speculation. I'm quite simply not able to give you more precise guidance on the COVID impact. On the 7% EBITDA, I mean, to put this into perspective, and we provided this in the presentation. The total start-up losses for our streaming businesses in 2020 will be EUR 90 million, and they were at EUR 25 million in 2019, which shows that we are increasing the start-up losses by EUR 65 million, and this goes primarily into content. Elmar mentioned before that we've made significant investments in content for streaming already. We've just commissioned 11 originals, which will become available in the course of this year and next year. And we have also, very importantly, acquired the exclusive rights to the Europa League, starting in season 2021 for 3 seasons for both free and pay. That will be a big driver, we believe, of our subscriber base at TV Now. This also shows, by the way, that, a, we're focusing our streaming businesses on local content, as we said all along. And secondly, we don't focus our content strategy on series and films. The streaming service, which we are providing will increasingly look like general interest. They will include films, they will include series, they will include different types of entertainment, they will include sports, as I just said, but they will also, of course, include licensed products from third parties, including American Studios. So the 7% is -- corresponds to the approximately to the EUR 65 million of additional investments in the form of start-up losses for streaming in 2020 compared to 2019, and we'll then build up in the subsequent years until we break even in 2025, as we said. On partnerships and alliances. We, as you know, have entered into a partnership with -- 2 partnerships to be more precise with ProSieben in the last years. The first one, which we announced last year is around advertising technology, a project called d-force, which is a joint booking platform of RTL and ProSieben for booking addressable TV campaigns and online video campaigns. The second, a big partnership in alliance is around data, with NetID, of which, as I said before, RTL and ProSieben are founding members. We are exploring other ways of cooperating with ProSieben, in particular, in the area of advertising technology, as I mentioned in my presentation. With at least 3 areas of partnerships, which we make available to third parties, ProSieben and others, advertising technology, VOD technology and international ad sales. VOD -- ad-technology is pretty obvious area for cooperation with ProSieben but also with many other broadcasters in Europe. We have presented our plans for ad-tech and VOD-tech to the European broadcast -- broadcasters is an extensive roadshow in the fourth quarter of last year. The response is positive. We have the second round of deep dives to determine exactly in which areas and which partner, which partnership model, we're going to operate going forward. As far as streaming services in Germany are concerned, TV Now, our streaming service is off to a very good start, as I said, and we are significantly ramping up our investments. Joyn, if you look at Joyn, it's a slightly different business model than TV Now. But more importantly, we believe that in streaming and building national streaming champions, timing is of essence because competition is intensifying. And frankly, our joint venture with ProSieben will take quite a bit of time to negotiate. And will take even more time to get approved by the regulators and potentially not be approved by the regulators. And that's a risk which I am not, and we are not prepared to take. We will continue to invest in TV Now, as I explained, along the guidance which I provided. Unfortunately, a fully operation with Joyn for the reasons I mentioned, it's unlikely to be possible at this stage. And the last thing I want is to get defocused on the key area of the future of RTL in the years ahead. This position, by the way, is underscored by the fact that I said earlier, that despite corona and the impact of corona, we will make the investments in streaming as planned. We are not going to cut back on these investments because we believe that now is the time to build a market position of strength to become the leader in local streaming and we're incredibly well placed to achieve this objective.

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Operator [13]

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The next question is from Adrien de Saint Hilaire of Bank of America.

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Adrien de Saint Hilaire, BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division - VP & Head of Media Research [14]

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I also hope you can hear me well. So I've got a few questions for you, please. Thomas, when you mentioned comparison to 2009. How flexible today is your P&L compared to 2009? Because in 2009, you have been able to protect very well the bottom line and cash flows. Do you think you have the same flexibility today, and that's beyond the investments that you have mentioned in streaming? The second question is, how resilient would you expect TV to be if there is indeed an economic recession in Europe? Because one could argue that into 2009, there was still a big buffer because of prints, but maybe that buffer doesn't exist anymore? And thirdly, perhaps following up on your previous observation about potential alliances. You made some comments in the press about regulators should authorize a full-blown merger with ProSieben, for example. But ultimately, is that your intention?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [15]

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Okay. Thank you. On the first question on 2009. In 2009, the television advertising at RTL was down by approximately 10%. That's north of EUR 300 million, and we are able to compensate approximately 50% of that by program and marketing cost savings. The world has changed since then. In 2009, RTL's and also M6's program schedules include significant U.S. product films and series. And one way to reduce program cost was quite simply to reduce the number of first and second runs and increase the number of repeats. Our program schedule now is much less dependent on the U.S. product. It's much more local, much more in-house. There is flexibility in our program, in our program spend. We will look at the program spend, quite frankly, I believe the coronavirus would have the impact, that the number of productions and shows will actually get postponed, which will have an immediate impact on our program costs. But what I said before is our policy in 2020 and beyond, we want -- we certainly don't want to come out of this corona crisis weaker than we got in it -- into it. We want to come out of it stronger. So if anything, our intention is to increase market share and not to lose market share. So we will take, as I said before, take the -- we will take the necessary measures to protect our business, but also to protect our people. We'll work on our cost base, but we are not going to cut into the substance of the business, neither in linear television nor in nonlinear television. On the second point, TV recession, it really relates to what I just said. Recession is one thing, coronavirus is something quite different. I mean, it's a matter of definitions, of course. But 2009 financial crisis was not a recession. It was the crisis with a significant drop in advertising revenue. But the V-shaped recovery, I mean, I remember this exactly. I was pretty close to the business at the time as well, and we had a huge drop in advertising revenue in the first quarter of 2009, continued into the second quarter, but at slightly kind of lower level. And then actually stabilized in the course of the year, and we came out at minus 10%. But no way of telling whether coronavirus will be similar in terms of impact or will be similar in terms of recovery. The number of people out there who think that corona could be, I mean, crisis and then V-shaped recovery. If we V-shaped recovery would be the same as in 2009, then Q2 would probably be affected, potentially significantly affected that RTL, that we would see first signs of recovery in the third and more importantly, in the very important fourth quarter. The problem which we would then face, but all of this is hypothesis, of course, is that we already have significant load factor, i.e., and the capacity utilization in the area of 90%-plus. We'd probably not be able to accommodate all the advertising if a V-shaped recovery would incur. There would potentially be an impact on pricing. But that is hard to tell. On alliances, what I said a few weeks ago in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung was not a statement that Bertelsmann or RTL want to merge with ProSieben. What I said was that, in time, we will have to -- if we want to compete with the U.S. platforms and the big U.S. media companies like the Disney+ and so on, we'll have to consolidate the national markets and create national champions, which today would not be possible because regulation is such that the market definition, the definition of relevant markets by regulators is incredibly restricted. And so it doesn't reflect the new reality, which we are facing of more competition, significantly more competition and many options for an advertiser to substitute TV advertising against other forms of advertising, for example, on YouTube, Facebook and the like. So I'm actually preparing the ground for a bigger discussion, which I think will be necessary. In the meantime, while a fully blown combination creation of national champions is not possible. We will cooperate with broadcasters on a national basis and European basis to the extent possible in the areas which are outlined, and I believe that this would be a very, very good start and potentially -- and could potentially lead to something bigger at some point down the road.

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Adrien de Saint Hilaire, BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division - VP & Head of Media Research [16]

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I appreciate the very detailed answer, Thomas. And if I could just ask one follow-up. You've mentioned cancellations. Have you seen any postponements of advertising campaigns? Or is that the same thing to you? Just to be very clear.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [17]

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It's probably the same thing. I mean, the postponements sometimes of a few days to accommodate advertising campaigns, but we've not -- that is kind of day-to-day business. We've not seen much of this as a result of corona. So what we're seeing is it's going to be the usual kind of shifting of advertising slots.

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Operator [18]

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Next question is from Conor O'Shea of Kepler Cheuvreux.

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Conor O'Shea, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Head of Media Sector [19]

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Just a follow-up Thomas, on your previous comments on your cost flexibility. Just to be clear, are you suggesting that your cost flexibility is greater now than it was in 2009 with the shift in program type? That's the first question. Second question on the streaming investments and the number that you outlined, EUR 90 million for 2020. Do you expect this for it to be the peak of net operating losses for streaming or do you consider -- think that, that number might go higher in 2021? And related to that, if you could just confirm -- maybe a question for Elmar on your accounting policy for Salto M6, which is being consolidated below the operating profit line on the M6 level. How will you reflect those losses in the RTL accounts? And then a final question just on consolidation. Just a broader question. Obviously, the share prices hit hard year-to-date -- you can -- just can you maybe say something about the logic of free-to-air broadcaster still being listed. Are there any reasons in theory why Bertelsmann  could not buy out the minority of RTL? Are there public service channel requirements that require the group to be listed and -- or are there other consolidation opportunities in the industry? You've got Atresmedia in which you have a stake, that it's on a ridiculously low market capitalization. Can you maybe talk around that a little bit more?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [20]

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Yes. On cost flexibility, good you're asking, I actually think that our flexibility is a bit lower than it was in 2009 because a significantly higher proportion of local programming. On streaming, it would be minus EUR 90 million in 2020, we will peak in 2021, 2022. The number will then be above EUR 100 million. But we've got every intention, coronavirus set aside, to maintain our level of profitability at the current level, which means that -- I mean, just to take you through the logic, right? First of all, we're obviously looking at ways of reducing our cost base across the board, and we're making progress. We have made a significant cost reduction in the administrative costs in the corporate center of RTL, significant and fully implemented. Our -- we will significantly reduce the losses coming from the MPN businesses next year and then the following years. We expect Fremantle to continue to contribute profitability and growing profitability and mix of all of this in normal market conditions, I should say, even if advertising markets would continue to slightly decline for linear television, we're very confident to be able to maintain our current level of profitability despite the higher investments in streaming. That's our firm commitment. We want to maintain profitability while investing, and this will allow us to build the future for the company and at the same time, pay attractive dividends to our shareholders. On the accounting of Salto. It's -- I mean, Salto is a joint venture, 1/3, 1/3, M6, France Televisions and TF1. RTL will account for this at equity. And the equity pickup will be included in our operating results. And not below the line. And on Bedrock, which is the streaming platform, the technical platform, we started using we're going to fully consolidate and there will be some start-up losses related to the building of Bedrock. On the -- yes, on the free-to-air broadcast -- listed free-to-air broadcasters, I agree with you that the share prices are ridiculous, in particular, in light of what I just said, but frankly, I mean, everybody's kind of -- everybody can have a view on this, but we believe that we have fantastic opportunities to transform our business. I mean, we are -- and we have outperformed the French and German markets last year. We've got every intention to continue to do this. As I said, we're addressing our cost base in linear television. We're investing in data and technology to personalize advertising, which will drive CPM. We are building streaming services with significant investment upfront, but profitability down the road. We're addressing weaknesses in our portfolio by divesting noncore businesses and loss-making businesses. So as I said, normal kind of economic times, I'm actually quite optimistic about our business and its ability to grow profitably and to transform. That is clearly not reflected in the current share price. Current share price includes all the downsides, but none of the upside. That's my view. Bertelsmann. I mean, this is an RTL call, not a Bertelsmann call, but Bertelsmann position is as follows, we consider RTL to be undervalued. We have, therefore, and I said it a few weeks ago in an interview and bought RTL shares in the market, but we have no intention to make an offer and to take RTL private. So RTL will continue to be a listed company in the future.

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Operator [21]

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The next question is from Christophe Van der Kelen from Value Square.

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Christophe Van der Kelen, [22]

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I've got 3 very small questions. The first one would be, could you break out the part of revenue that comes from -- or the part in advertising revenue that comes from the sectors that will be harder hit, like you mentioned, tourism and others? Then the second question would be, it's not always easy, you have 2 sort of segmentations in parallel now. You have the segmentations that are in the report as they are meeting group according to the channels? And then also, now you have the segmentation in TV, digital and streaming. I was wondering if you are thinking of making a different segmentation and to putting it more streamlined to this TV, digital and streaming revenues because it's not always clear where those some of the costs are? And then in which segments, the digital costs come and in which segment the streaming costs come? And then the third question would be, you mentioned in the presentation when you expect breakeven for the streaming platforms. But would you also do that for the digital platforms when you expect to have a breakeven there?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [23]

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Well, I mean, on the sectors currently and hardest hit by corona and on cancellations, which I mentioned, tourism, travel, et cetera, in the broader sense. The exposure of RTL channels differs, but it's in the range of 2% to 4% to 5%. So the exposure is not particularly high. And frankly, some of the advertising have already been in place and booked in the first quarter, which, as I said, is stable. In terms of providing more transparency on streaming. We do so on Page 1 of our press release, the streaming revenue for TV Now and Videoland. We'll continue to do this. And we will, of course, provide you with information about the number of subscribers, we'll provide you with information on revenue, and we'll provide you with details on the EBITDA and the start-up losses year-by-year and half year by half year. So we will, in line with the guidance we provided today or the long-term outlook we provided today give you what you need. So it's going to be broadly what you see on Page 5 of the press release. So we show the paying subscribers, 2019 and the outlook for 2025 and 2020 will show same subscribers. For 2020, we show the streaming revenue, and we show the content spend per annum, which was EUR 85 million in 2019 and which we expect to increase to EUR 350 million in 2025. That is RTL Now and Videoland combined, that excludes Bedrock and Salto with the exception of the development cost for the Bedrock platform. And on digital, on the other digital platforms, I mean, the other digital businesses are, in large part, profitable. You think about our ad-tech business SpotX, in the U.S., that's growing significantly to high double-digit rates, and it's profitable and scaling. This price to lesser extent, to our, what we call MPN businesses in the past, which we now call digital studio businesses because we have transformed these businesses. These are business with significant revenue growth, but low margins, in particular, for those businesses, which heavily depend on YouTube revenue where the terms of trade are not particularly favorable, and the gross margins are often in the area of 10% or less, which makes it very difficult to earn a living.

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Operator [24]

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The next question is from Catherine O'Neill from Citi.

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Catherine T O'Neill, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - Director, VP and Analyst [25]

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I had a couple of questions. One, on free Fremantle, in the release, you mentioned production delays. I just wondered if you could give us a bit more detail on what you're seeing around delays in the production side and how we should think about that going forward? And then the other is on ad-tech, this -- Google's potentially changes and more broadly, there's move away from cookies, which I assume may help your ad-tech businesses because they seem to be less rely on that. How should we think about the potential benefit or implications, fewer ad-tech businesses from a change to how the ad-tech industry is going to be operating?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [26]

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Okay. Well, on Fremantle and the studio business, frankly, it also applies to the broadcasters and the live shows like Let's Dance or -- what have you. I mean, clearly, I mean, we -- first of all, I mean, what we've decided to do and what we've implemented is that these shows take place without live audience. That's the first change. Some of these formats work better and some less well without audience. So we'll have to take a view. What we don't know is, of course, what the authorities are going to tell us and what the restrictions they're going to impose on us. But so good so far. So it really largely depends on the extent to which the respective countries will be locked down in the next days or weeks. And the measures which we are would be taking to protect not only our people,but also the, for example, the singers in American Idol and the jury and the crew members and so on. So frankly, I mean, these are people businesses. These are businesses, people coming together. And the question is, to what extent this will continue to be possible in the next days and weeks. But as I said, no cancellations so far, some performance and potentially some impact on live shows with audiences, which, as I said, we have cut back significantly already. On ad-tech and the cookies, I mean, I think we -- I think in our mindset, we're getting -- with respect to data, we're getting ready for worlds where content will be required and where cookies will not be -- will no longer be available or will not be used. And that will, of course, have an impact on advertising and technology businesses and ability to personalize advertising. And what is necessary is to generate first-party data and to get consents from the users to be able to use the data, and we're working on such solutions.

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Catherine T O'Neill, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - Director, VP and Analyst [27]

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Could I just ask on the Fremantle, on the live shows. Over the next course of the next couple of months, 2 or 3 months, what proportion of your big live shows tend to feature?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [28]

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Listen, I mean, I think we've got American Idol, which is ongoing. We've got Got Talent, I believe, later this year. But we've got a number of life shows for you, on German television, French television, and they could be affected in a similar way, depending on the restrictions you apply. I mean, the new word of the weaker social distancing and if you want to apply social distancing to live shows, like dance formats and the like, I can imagine what it would look like. And imagine whether you know this is something which people who are prepared to do given the circumstances and with us. So frankly, I mean, this is very, very close to a -- as close as you get to the reality of coronavirus and the measures to take. I really don't want to speculate on individual shows and their impact. We are in a constant and a very good dialogue with the broadcasters, with the networks in the U.S. to determine what the right course of action is. I think we all agree that this is a time where television has an important role to play in terms of informing our audiences but also entertaining our audiences but at the same time, we have a duty to protect our people and to protect the people involved in these shows. And that's a fine line and will be decided on a case-by-case basis between Fremantle and the broadcasters and the networks in the U.S.

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Elmar Heggen, RTL Group SA - Deputy CEO, COO & Executive Director [29]

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Catherine, just to -- from my side, one -- a little bit of information, for example, Fremantle used studios based in Maidstone, and there was a third-party company also working on-site and there was confirmed COVID-19 outbreak there. So whether that studio is going to be used by Fremantle in the future, to be seen. What shows can be moved to other facilities, to be seen. But clearly, there are ongoing impacts within the industry, which we need to adjust to, as Thomas has alluded to.

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Operator [30]

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The next question is from Matt Bodson of Goldman Sachs.

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Lisa Yang, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Equity Analyst [31]

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It's actually Lisa Yang from Goldman. A few questions, please. So in Germany, you guys seem to be -- continued to take share from ProSieben despite their investment in content and account to -- that's another EUR 50 million in 2020. So I'm just trying to -- like is there anything like any structural reason that explain that and how do you think about your share in 2020 and beyond? Secondly, in terms of your investments on the different streaming services. I'm just wondering how much of those investments are actually shared between those platforms? Like how much of that, basically, is like local as opposed to like what amount of synergies you're actually getting? And could you think of rolling out some of those initiatives in other markets as well? Thirdly, on Fremantle. Just wondering that you gave the revenue guidance, could we also have sort of guidance for margins. I mean, those margins have been basically flat for full year? Is that around [8%]. So just wondering, like, we should start to see them picking up? And the last question is related to sports events. Just wondering if you do get some footballs games like canceled because I think you're broadcasting some games in Germany and, obviously, have the ears in France. What would be the sort of profit impact? I guess, the other question is like do you actually make money on those sports events, if they get canceled, (inaudible) positive?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [32]

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Oh, God. Yes. Well, on ProSieben and RTL in the German market. As I said, we outperformed the advertising market quite significantly last year. Advertising market share is up. I mean, all of these -- all of this is based on estimates because there's no official market data. As you know, and the outperformance of RTL, both in terms of audience, but also in terms of advertising market share, continued in the first quarter of 2020. In terms of content and content synergies, FC Group, which is the vehicle I mentioned earlier is going be owned by the broadcasters. It focuses on entertainment formats. With a view to what you broadcast to them at -- the broadcasters who are shareholders of FC group, but also to third parties, of course. So we're going to focus on this for the moment. We see very interesting formats coming out of FC Group, but we are at the beginning of this. And if it works well, we could well decide in the course of this year to extend the partnership. As far as -- I mean, synergies, maybe another point on content synergies and there's significant content synergies between linear and nonlinear, i.e., between linear TV and streaming services. Look, for example, at RTL in Germany, all of the investments we're going to make in content for TV Now, investments that also, to some extent, will be used on our linear channel. So there's huge synergies by effectively looking at linear and nonlinear combined and looking effectively at 1 holistic program budget. That's also why it's quite difficult for us to give guidance on content spend on TV Now. Because it's a matter of how you allocate cost between linear and nonlinear. But the number we provided is reliable. But the way we look at content investment is really in a combined and holistic manner for linear and nonlinear offers. On Fremantle, margin is going to stay broadly, broadly unchanged in 2020. So we see 4% to 6% revenue increase and a corresponding increase in profitability. And on sports events, I mean, the sports, which we broadcast, I mean, in Germany, it's primarily a Europa League and Formula 1 and the World Cup and European Championship qualifiers. Qualifiers are done. The 2 friendly matches, Germany, I believe, Spain and Italy in the next 10 days. Right now, the decision is that these matches take place, but with no spectators. That's a question mark. If these matches would not take place, we would get reimbursed. Europa League took place yesterday evening, and we broadcast 1 match. Generally speaking, on sports, it's -- if you look at sports in isolation, and not with the entire program grid. They look at sports in isolation, it's very difficult to earn a margin. But sports are necessary in a general interest program schedule. And so we definitely look at our profitability holistically. And as I said before, RTL Germany's EBITDA margin last year was close to 30%. Which I think speaks for itself. But sports, isolated, it's generally loss-making. So if sport events would get canceled, postponed, this would have, and you can conclude this already, a positive impact on the program spend.

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Lisa Yang, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Equity Analyst [33]

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That's very helpful. And just in terms of the synergies between the different streaming services? Is it fair to say on the non-content side, like, could you quantify the level, like, synergies that you see as well?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [34]

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Sorry, Lisa, the line was bad. Can you repeat the question?

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Lisa Yang, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Equity Analyst [35]

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Sir, I'm just wondering, you talked about the content synergies between your different streaming services and between linear and non-linear. But if you think about the spend on like new tech, like user interface, all those things for the streaming service, in particular. Could you maybe help us understand what the sort of synergies you might have there, as well.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [36]

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Well, let's take video-on-demand technology. Until we started to work together at RTL, M6 via Bedrock, here, RTL Germany, RTL Nederland, each spend approximately EUR 10 million on building the ad-tech platforms and operating them, but effectively build the same stuff. So if you would combine these 3x, EUR 10 million, you actually would get EUR 30 million of benefit. But if you invest as 3x EUR 10 million individually, the value trade is probably EUR 10 million to EUR 12 million because, as I said, you're building the same stuff again. So by joining forces and bundling resources at RTL and beyond will actually -- without spending significantly more than we do so far, be able to build something, which is much more competitive, much more in line with customer requirements, which are largely set by the Netflix experience. And that's why we are on VOD technology so keen to build a European standard around Bedrock. And as I said, we are in a pretty good shape. Because Bedrock will be used by -- Salto will be used by M6 and M6 replay, it will be used by Videoland. It's already being used for AVOD services by RTL in Belgium, Hungary, Croatia and Luxembourg. And as I said before, we're talking to a number of European broadcasters to join this effort because it just doesn't make sense for them to build their own streaming platforms that we've spent money without building the value, which they could get out of the partnership with us. So that's the proposition. And the same, to a large extent, it applies to advertising technology. I mean, advertising technologies like building a market infrastructure. And a holistic advertising stack with demand-side and supply-side platforms and ad services and the like. And that will allow all the broadcasters in time to sell the advertising inventory, linear, nonlinear at more attractive terms. And it doesn't make sense. And frankly, most of the broadcasters quite simply don't have the resources to build their own ad stack. And if they don't want to rely on Google or others, but want to use a neutral European platform, then Smartclip is a good answer. And many broadcasters, which we met on our roadshow last year, which was a meeting on the deep dive, fully understand this concept and are very open-minded on joining.

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Operator [37]

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The last question is now from Julien Roch of Barclays.

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Julien Roch, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst [38]

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Yes, thank you very much for taking my extra question. You were very clear on your streaming target. But I guess, it's a different model. It's a pay model, your historical business is advertising model, which you need to adapt, and you mentioned several times, targeted advertising. And you have a very useful disclosure, but you actually don't give us AVOD revenue. So we can have an idea of how much of a percentage of TV advertising it is. And the other thing you don't do, which ITV does and ProSieben does is give us total viewing, i.e., number of minutes in Germany broken down between linear and on-demand. So we can have a view on how fast you're transforming your business. So could you give us some color today or maybe include that in future disclosure, that will be great.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [39]

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Well, the number we provide and which we discussed before on the EUR 135 million in streaming for TV Now and Videoland, include some advertising model revenue because, as I said before, those models are hybrid models with advertising, more or less advertising depending on the subscription fee. So it is a hybrid model and will remain a hybrid model. The subscription component will become much more significant in terms of revenue share going forward. To be honest, I mean, I understand your question and I understand why you're interested in this. I'm just not sure whether this would not be a level of disclosure that would be commercially centered. We got -- we're not competing. I mean, we're competing with ProSieben to some extent, of course, in streaming, but so we're competing with the Netflix's and the Amazon Primes and the Disney's who hardly provide any detail. I mean no detail at all, by the way, on the German market and on the Dutch market. And I'm just not sure whether it's in the best interest of the company and the shareholders if we disclose this information, which is potentially commercially sensitive. But it's -- in terms of...

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Julien Roch, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst [40]

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Maybe if you do that at the group level rather than by country, then it becomes less sensitive and also I'm not sure that the viewing time would be commercially sensitive. I mean, ITV does it in the U.K., they're the only broadcaster in Europe at the moment that does break total viewing, in-air viewing and on-demand viewing and ProSieben gives you a total viewing that they don't break down.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [41]

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Okay. Well, let me give you the number then because you're so convincing. The TV viewing last year on RTL was minus 0.2%. And that's the equivalent of 44 million hours of viewing. The nonlinear viewing was up by 48.9 million hours, that's a plus of 21.2%. And therefore, we are effectively flat in terms of total viewing, which shows that the substitution between linear and nonlinear works. Because in 2018, the total number of viewing -- I mean, total viewing time, measured in million hours was 19,066, and in 2019 was 19,071. So in reality, we are flat, in total view, slightly up. And the positive message is that we are able to compensate linear view in decline in terms of consumption, powered by nonlinear viewing, and this trend will clearly continue as we invest heavily in our streaming services.

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Julien Roch, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst [42]

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Yes, this is fantastic. And when you say RTL, this is RTL Group in Germany. So all the channels, not only...

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [43]

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No, no, just Germany. Yes, Germany.

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Julien Roch, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst [44]

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But it's all the channels in Germany, not only RTL channel?

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [45]

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Yes. I don't know everything. Okay. All the IP channels and that excludes RTL 2 because they have their own advertising agencies. So all IP channels and all-digital office of RTL. As we think about a KPI, which we could use going forward, but this would be including all of our broadcasters at group level, which is potentially not relevant, right? So let us think about how best to do this? I understand your point. Because you want to understand how we are transforming our business and how you can measure this transformation, the success of the transformation and viewing time, switching linear to nonlinear is a key performance indicator. You're absolutely right. So let us think about it. And see whether we can come up with something that is meaningful without being commercially too sensitive. Okay?

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Julien Roch, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - MD & European Media Analyst [46]

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Yes. No, that's great. I guess, you just gave Germany. If going forward, you gave us Germany, Netherlands and France, for instance, and then an overall advertising number at the group level, that will be amazing.

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Thomas Rabe, RTL Group SA - CEO & Director [47]

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Yes. I'll think about it.

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Andrew Buckhurst, RTL Group SA - SVP of IR [48]

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Thank you, everyone, for your listening in. Thank you for your questions. I'm obviously around for the rest of the day. If you have any further questions, any follow-up, we'll be in touch anyway through, hopefully, some conferences, less probably through roadshows. And obviously, the numbers -- next numbers from us will be in early May with the Q1. Thanks once again, and have a good day.

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Operator [49]

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attendance. This call has been concluded. You may disconnect now.