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Edited Transcript of ATG1V.HE earnings conference call or presentation 7-Nov-19 12:00pm GMT

Nine Months 2019 Asiakastieto Group Plc Earnings Call

HELSINKI Nov 8, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Asiakastieto Group Plc earnings conference call or presentation Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 12:00:00pm GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Anders Hugosson

Asiakastieto Group Oyj - Deputy CEO, Acting CIO & Director of IT and Technology

* Antti Kauppila

* Elina Stråhlman

Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CFO & Member of Executive Board

* Heikki Koivula

Asiakastieto Group Oyj - Director of Risk Decisions

* Jukka Ruuska

Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO

* Pia Katila

Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager

* Siri Bengtsson

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Conference Call Participants

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* Matti Ahokas

Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Head of Equity Research of Finland

* Matti Riikonen

Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst

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Presentation

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [1]

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Good afternoon, all, and welcome to Asiakastieto's Third Quarter 2019 Results Briefing. Welcome also all of you who are following this on conference call line or through our webcast system.

First, I would like to introduce our management members present here: CEO, Jukka Ruuska.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [2]

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Hello.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [3]

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Deputy CEO, Anders Hugosson.

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Anders Hugosson, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - Deputy CEO, Acting CIO & Director of IT and Technology [4]

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Hi.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [5]

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CFO, Elina Stråhlman.

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Elina Stråhlman, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CFO & Member of Executive Board [6]

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Hello.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [7]

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Who started in mid-September. And Head of Financial Planning and Analysis, Antti Kauppila.

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Antti Kauppila, [8]

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Good afternoon.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [9]

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Director of SME and Consumers, Siri Bengtsson.

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Siri Bengtsson, [10]

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Hi.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [11]

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And Director of Risk Decisions, Heikki Koivula.

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Heikki Koivula, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - Director of Risk Decisions [12]

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Hello.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [13]

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My name is Pia Katila. I'm Asiakastieto's Investor Relations Manager. Our agenda today is as follows: Jukka will start with the highlights of Q3, including a review of new services followed by the financials and outlook for the rest of the year. And after the presentation, we take, as usual, first, the questions from our audience here in Kalasatama, Helsinki, then conference call line and online questions.

And for your information, all the presentation material is available on our Investor pages.

Let's start with the presentation. Please, Jukka.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [14]

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Thank you, Pia, and very warm welcome to this -- our quarterly result briefing. It's great privilege to, again, be in a position to speak of my favorite topic, Asiakastieto Group.

Let's jump immediately to the highlights. So the highlights, including, first of all, clearly, the continued integration work. And now after the acquisition of Proff companies, we have combined also Proff to our integration exercise, i.e., that we are keeping track on Proff synergies in a very same manner as what we are doing with Asiakastieto-UC transaction synergies. And respectively, we have also included our communicated synergy goal on 2021 to our synergy goals as a whole. So now our new goal is EUR 17.8 million as of 2021.

The integration work is going on according to the plan. I will say a few words on that. During this fall, we have also started our first common strategy process. And we have established, I would say even innovated our own method to craft our new strategy. And that process and that method is called Popcorn. And that is showing the characteristics of this process. So the idea is that we let all corns pop, i.e. that we want to utilize all the ideas and engage as many persons from our personnel as possible to the strategy process.

And currently, in our working streams, we have more than 1/5 of entire personnel participating, so that's a really cool thing.

Then on this business development side and -- the numbers will be discussed later. But as a whole, we launched 7 new services during third quarter, like consumer check in Sweden and enhancement in our digital apartment information services in Finland.

Then as a highlight, we took up enabling responsible lending. And I think that this is quite a topical thing. So what we are doing with our services? So we are enabling our customers, the lenders to make diligent, responsible and good credit decisions. And so those better credit decisions are obviously good for the lender itself. It means that there are less loan provisions, less bad debt. It's good for those who want to lend for consumers and for companies for that part. But in a societal context, we are discussing mostly consumers. And clearly, it means that those consumers who don't have capability to take care of the obligations, that simply cannot afford to lend are not going to be in a position to lend. And that means that there is a benefit also for the entire society, i.e. that this kind of development that easily starts from excess debtness, overdebtness are avoided. And this enablement takes place with our services. And we have a collection of examples over here I'm going to discuss more in detail.

And then finally, but not least, so on the third quarter sales, they're good. And I think that we are quite really using -- expression very good for this time period using that expression.

And clearly, we had very good growth, especially in our Risk Decision. And within Risk Decision, it was consumer-related. So this is that we are driving the growth but also within our digital processes. And on top of that, we had also this not organic part, i.e. the acquisition of Proff.

But as said over here, so we keep our full year outlook unchanged, which means that we don't expect this fast growth to continue. So definitely, we expect that there's going to be a decent growth as we have guided, but not growth that is exactly on the same level as it has been during this quarter.

But since the top line growth has been that good, i.e. that on ForEx comparable percentages slightly above 18%. So (inaudible) from that growth is coming. And for this time, so the volume has been the biggest contributor. So we have been used to have new services as the biggest contributor for the growth. But for this quarter, it has been volume as already discussed, so very much in the field of Risk Decision and Digital Processes. But definitely, we had also the new services component, however, on a slightly lower level than during the earlier quarters this year, being on 3.4% of our revenue.

Then I think that finally, we are getting to the phase where we are cross-selling or cross-utilization efforts. It's also partially related to that part and starting to bear fruit, i.e. that now we have the collateral valuation service in Finland in -- at good speed. We finally managed to launch our GDPR service in the Swedish market and that is something I have been promising already earlier. And finally, this week's Monday that happened. So they are coming, but to some extent at the later schedule than we originally thought. But they are coming.

And then, as I said, there was a contribution from Proff acquisition. We haven't just disclosed Proff numbers specifically because we don't want to be discussing them every quarter now on. But I think that we even get very good proxy for Proff when looking at '18 numbers when the Proff revenue was SEK 101 million. And for this year, we are forecasting somewhat smaller -- same ballpark, somewhat smaller revenue for Proff. And when speaking of Proff, so our adjusted -- EBITDA adjusted based on management estimates was 16% for Proff. So clearly, it is diluting our EBITDA margin for that part. But on the other hand -- so it's a healthy EBITDA contribution as well that is coming from Proff acquisition. So those are the growth sources. There were no that kind of specific one-off type of top line items during the quarter.

Then looking more specifically on these highlights, so integration process continues. So we have rigorous process to screen over the integration of road maps and development. And we keep adjusting them, to some extent also changing them. So we are finding out that some of the initial road maps and some of the initial ideas are not actually executable. And -- but so there are new items, new topics coming to the synergy road mapping. And definitely, we are feeling very confident that we can deliver our goal of this EUR 17.8 million as already mentioned.

And in terms of the new services development, so clearly, what we have seen during this year is a declining trend concerning the share of revenue coming from new services. And the reasons are the very same as discussed earlier, i.e. that the integration work has taken its toll on our resources and the platform integration programs or program continues to take share of those resources that otherwise would be concentrating on new services development.

And in new services development, there are quite long lead times. So these levels are very much a result of the resource used during the second half of last year '18. And it takes time to rebuild the pipeline and make things happen so that there are launchable services.

However, we are anticipating -- we do expect a trend change concerning the new services revenue. So what we are expecting is that during next year, we are going to change the trend. And as a whole, the new services share of revenue for next year is going to be on a higher level than what it is going to be for this year as a whole.

When the trend is going to change? It is the second part of what that remains to be seen, but we think that we have a good pipeline and we can deliver based on that.

Then looking at this responsible lending. So clearly, something to be kept repeating is the value of positive data. And we have excellent solutions for positive data both in Sweden and Finland, even though they are very different solutions by technicalities and by character. So in Finland, we have the credit inquiry system, so the data sharing platform where the lenders can become members of and can get data on the loan applicants' current obligations from others -- other lenders who are participant in this inquiry system and it requires consumers' consent.

In Sweden, we are operating positive register on all Swedes who are over 16 years. And both are unique data, that kind of data that is not available from other sources and as such, extremely valuable data.

In Finland, quite recently, we have seen quite -- some development concerning the positive register. So the minister group -- ministers from the government decided to start preparations for positive register for Finnish consumers. And from our point of view, it is good because positive register means more raw material for us. Most are for us to be utilized in scoring and other services. However, I'm a bit skeptical concerning the timetable communicated by this minister group, i.e. that we might have first part available in 2023, especially since the communication was that it would start partially, and I really don't understand how you can start partially to build a positive register.

And as an outcome from our point of view, so I think that if and when there's a positive register, that's good for our business, but also so that at least my forecast is that there's going to be dual system i.e. that the positive register and the data sharing platform will continue to coexist. And the reason is that -- my guess is that the data content of positive register is not going to be rich enough. And therefore, there is going to be need for this kind of data sharing services also in the future.

Another thing what we are providing in order to enable good responsible lending is our new service account insight. And account insight is based on payment services directive. The second one and -- or the principle that is opening bank data account -- bank account data for third parties. And what we have built is an aggregation service that makes sense of the bank account data. And clearly -- so the benefits of bank account data are -- first of all, that it's up to date. And clearly, it's very rich data. The difficulties are that making sense of bank account data is not that easy. So you have to be able to categorize the transactions and establish understanding of those categories and what do they mean. And we have established that in our service i.e. that in our service, you can make a judgment on how much a consumer can afford to lend, so how much there are payment capacity for consumer.

Another good example of those tools we are providing for our customers to enable responsible lending is Risk Blanco. And the idea of it -- this product-specific scoring i.e. that this is a specific scoring meant for unsecured lending for consumers. And when you have defining more narrowly the purpose for the scoring, then you can improve how well that model can forecast to defaults. And we have been able to achieve with this blanco scoring a significant improvement to (inaudible) efficiency of the predictions -- of our prediction models. Extremely good tool for those lenders who are providing unsecured consumer lending, something to be brought to Finnish market as well in due course.

And then, clearly, we are taking care also of our responsibility on advising and on helping youngsters to understand how to run own economy, own finance.

Then jumping over to the financial numbers from the third quarter. As already mentioned, so sales at good speed at ForEx comparable rates, a bit above 18%, which is a handsome figure as such. Respectably also the EBITDA continued to grow fast. And the growth for EBITDA is coming naturally from the top line and from the fact that the top line growth has taken place, to a large extent, in those services where we have high operational leverage.

For the second, clearly, we are enjoying the benefits of the synergy impacts, i.e. that the cost savings are visible at this. When looking for the future, so clearly, synergy impact wise, the comparison numbers are coming tougher. So for example, we got quite remarkable part of FTE savings starting from the beginning of the fourth quarter. So that is something to be beared in mind when looking at the future.

And for the sake of colors, so this is now the first quarter we don't have pro forma figures for quarterly figures, but we have the pro forma figures still for full year figures. But I don't think that for the full year figures, there isn't anything that specific to be mentioned.

Let's jump to the business area growth. And as already discussed, so Risk Decision was growing very nicely indeed and the consumer part was growing fast, especially in Sweden. In Finland, we saw good growth despite the fact that the new regulation came into force already from the beginning of the September. However, we expect to see the impact from this payday lender regulation on the Finnish market now coming with a delay.

And then the digital processes, good organic growth with new services and good growth otherwise. SMEC growing organically, but the Proff acquisition is on the SMEC. And respectively, there is some doping in SMEC growth numbers coming from this acquisition.

And then finally, customer data management, flat numbers. And the Emaileri service continue to decrease revenue-wise and the other growth compensates for that decrease, but we didn't get to the actual growth numbers for the entire CDM. And all these numbers are at comparable ForEx rates. That is something we have been already discussing.

Then when we look at the EBITDA breakdown, so good contribution from the top line growth, fairly limited growth for the other cost items except other operating expenses. And we outsourced our Swedish telephone sales operation. Clearly, it means that now the cost for our Swedish telephone operations for that part is converting from salaries and so that kind of direct cost into commission and that falls to the category of operating expenses.

Cash flow. So extremely good cash flow for the third quarter, resulting again from good growth in EBITDA from some seasonality topic. So the net working capital is impacted on our invoicing cycle. And for third quarter, the invoicing cycle was favorable from the cash flow point of view. And then clearly, we didn't have that much one-off items. So if -- for example, if we look at third quarter last year, so we had very significant one-off. I think, Elina, it was...

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Elina Stråhlman, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CFO & Member of Executive Board [15]

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About EUR 4 million.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [16]

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Roughly speaking, EUR 4 million. So clearly, that is not visible over here.

And respectively, our net debt in relation to adjusted EBITDA clearly below 3x already. How we are accounting this is that we are taking the third quarter EBITDA 4x, so that is definitely helping also. But that shows that with this cash flow, deleverage is going on. And then we have to remember also that when we are looking at cash flow and when we are looking at our net debt, so we financed the Proff acquisition from our cash flow. So -- and we have kept, as already mentioned, our guidance the same. So I think that those are -- those were the key points.

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Questions and Answers

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [1]

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And then we will continue with the questions. And first, we will take questions from our audience here in Kalasatama, Helsinki.

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Matti Ahokas, Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Head of Equity Research of Finland [2]

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Matti Ahokas, Danske Bank. Can you help me with the math a bit? Because you go and buy lower margin business and still your group margin goes up at the same time. So I'm kind of struggling here with the math. Does it mean that your kind of underlying margin is in the old -- excluding the Proff acquisition were clearly much higher in the previous quarter? Because that's the only explanation I can really find here.

And the other question, did you do any pricing changes in Risk Decisions or is this pure volume-related top line growth?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [3]

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Margin-wise, so clearly, Proff is having significantly lower margin than the rest of the business. And it means that Proff as such is diluting our margin. And it was more than compensated by margin expansion in our other operations. And as said, so the key thing is the combination of growth in those businesses where we don't have too much variable cost, i.e., variable data acquisition costs combined with the cost savings that have been coming from the synergy actions. So that is the form.

Price-wise, so no price changes.

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [4]

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie. You already touched the organic growth question, but I'm going to ask it anyway because you have more than 40 pages in the report, and the only number that we were really looking for is the organic growth. But based on your guidance, I'm kind of guessing that it would be around 9% or 10.5% with constant FX, assuming that Proff has roughly EUR 10 million in net sales. And if you assume a kind of even split per quarter, then it would be EUR 2.5 million per quarter. So is that roughly right? Because obviously, you don't want to spell the number.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [5]

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Yes. And I think that, Matti, this is exactly the right, i.e. that I said so the Proff is, as I mentioned, slightly below what it was last year. And then turning that into Euros constantly deevaluating Swedish krone. And basically, the quarterly sales with Proffs are fairly stable. Isn't it so, Siri?

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Siri Bengtsson, [6]

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Yes.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [7]

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So that is the way to do it.

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [8]

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All right. Fair enough. Then regarding the new products, you already mentioned that you now kind of accept the fact that it takes a bit longer, as you said in the report, and we can assume that new services would start to contribute in 2020.

So are you expecting that you would go back to the previous levels, let's say, close to 10%? Or are we expecting a step change from 4%, 3% level, slightly higher? Where do you think we should aim at?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [9]

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Then we are going to be through our platform migration. Then I think that we have all reasons to believe that we are back on that ballpark, but not before it. So before that has been finalized -- well, it will be finalized, it is a continuous process. But before that, it will be a stepwise process going on. But our clear ambition is to be on that neighborhood again.

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [10]

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Okay. Good. Then finally on -- in Risk Decisions where you had the volume growth as you painted out the picture nicely there, was there anything kind of marketing or sales-related new things that you did or was it just a coincidence that in this quarter, it happened to be clearly better volume-wise?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [11]

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Well, because, clearly, what we are doing is continuous improvement. So it's difficult to pinpoint that (inaudible) achievement here and that (inaudible) achievement there, but -- continuous improvement works. And so the growth is coming from many sources. For example, with this PSD2 service, we have been able to doing some of the new customers. But also, there was strong underlying volume growth. And obviously, that sort of volume growth comes without our efforts. So it comes and goes, but it is a combination.

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [12]

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Good. Finally, regarding the integration costs, you now had some kind of normal integration costs and then some additional kind of layoff-related costs. Should we expect that those costs would be kind of declining in Q4? So have you basically done everything now related to Proff in this quarter or will there be some tailwind?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [13]

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Yes. Elina or Antti, do you want to comment?

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Antti Kauppila, [14]

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Yes. Your conclusion is correct. In Q4, you should only see, let's say, minor tailwinds. But in a sense, we have done most of the things. So in Q4, no expectation of sort of major such onetime costs.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [15]

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Any more questions from our audience?

Then we will continue with the questions over the telephone conference line. Please, operator?

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Operator [16]

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(Operator Instructions) There are no phone questions at this time, ma'am.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [17]

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No questions. But then we have actually received quite a many online questions. First, Sami Sarkamies from Nordea Markets. Three questions. The first one is can you confirm that all cost synergies related to UC integration have been reached? What is the annual run rate as of Q3?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [18]

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Concerning the UC transaction-related synergies, so there are definitely still cost synergies to come. I think that we have executed majority of those, but there is more to come. And I think that it's worthwhile also to mention that we choose 2021 as also the communication year because it was not too far away from 2018 when the transaction was communicated. And definitely, we expect that also after 2021, there will be benefits coming -- synergy benefits coming, including also cost synergies, especially coming from IT migration part.

So clearly, our expectation is that the maintenance cost is going to be significantly lower after these investments. And then I really didn't get the other one.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [19]

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What is the annual run rate as of Q3?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [20]

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Annual run rate of what?

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [21]

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I don't know. As of Q3 synergies.

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Elina Stråhlman, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CFO & Member of Executive Board [22]

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Synergies.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [23]

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Synergies. We haven't been disclosing on that kind of level. So -- but the general guideline has been that as a whole, the execution of synergy efforts result in benefit, so it is going to be, roughly speaking, linear time line from 2018 to 2021. So that is the guideline what we have been discussing.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [24]

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Okay. The second question is I think you partly answered. Thinking about remaining synergies, what kind of trajectory do you anticipate for them between now and 2021?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [25]

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Yes. I think that was...

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [26]

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Yes. It was covered. And the third one is do you view further M&A likely during 2020 and what areas are you interested in?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [27]

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Yes. In terms of M&A, so we have 2 areas of interest. The other is not a consolidation. So definitely, we would like to have sort of very strong presence in all Nordic markets. And in that respect, the Proff acquisition was a good start concerning Norwegian market and very small start concerning Danish market. So that is something that we are looking and working with.

The other part is the smaller add-on acquisition type of transactions. And definitely, as we see our cash flow now, so we believe that we can take care of the cash dividend, our CapEx, including this extraordinary IT migration program, financing and that kind of smaller acquisitions from our cash flow without increasing our leverage. And I think that if and when we are finding that kind of good opportunities which are not too expensive, so we are very eager to make good matching smaller add-on acquisitions.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [28]

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Thank you. Then we have (inaudible). On the way new payday regulation risk, how big is the payday lenders customer segment revenue if compared for -- to, for example, the banking customer segment?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [29]

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It's clearly a fraction of the total banking market. (inaudible) we have better way to express that.

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Antti Kauppila, [30]

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No. it is...

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [31]

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Can you take this mic.

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Antti Kauppila, [32]

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Yes. So I think that the -- it is -- as Jukka said, so it is a fraction, but we don't like to guess any bank figures on it. But it's a part of the total market.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [33]

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Yes. And I think that when you look at consumer lending industry, so you should be a bit more nuanced than -- rather than saying that they are all payday lenders. So there are that kind of companies who have been already earlier changing their operations that they are providing longer loans. And I think that you have that kind of continuation now from mortgages to very short loans.

And therefore, neither this sort of new regulation in Finland impacts all consumer lenders in an equal manner. So at least when we are discussing with our customers, there are many that are saying that it doesn't have any impact to us. But then there are those funds who are impacted a lot. And there are a number of lenders who have simply quit lending.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [34]

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And then we have Kimmo Stenvall from OP. For CapEx, is full year CapEx run rate EUR 11 million to EUR 12 million?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [35]

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Well, we agreed that I get easy questions. And Elena and Antti are taking difficult ones, so...

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Antti Kauppila, [36]

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Yes. Good question. So not to state an exact figure, but the ballpark scale is correct. So obviously, as we have stated, our capital investments will be on a higher level this year than what they were in previous year, and we have been in an investment mode. So I would say that the ballpark is correct, not stating anything exactly in that.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [37]

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And I refer again to my statement that even with this higher level of investment, we believe that our cash flow is sufficient to take care of the cash dividend and even so that we can make that kind of smaller acquisition from our cash flow.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [38]

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All right. This was all from online. Any further questions from our audience?

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [39]

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Matti Riikonen, Carnegie. One small question related to digital processes. You write in the report that in Sweden the Tambur service has reached high share of the market. Should this be understood that you have basically reached the revenue level that you were anticipating to get? Or does the wording mean something different?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [40]

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Yes. So the penetration of Tambur service, this is housing transaction service in the Swedish market. It has increased very rapidly. So the service was launched 1.5 years ago. And now about 60% of the market transactions are done on this platform. So it has been just a great development.

Then our pricing model is such that we have more fixed type of pricing for this particular service, which means that our revenues, our income doesn't come directly as a function of the usage or the number of transaction executed on Tambur platform. So what we are looking for next year is some growth on Tambur, but it is not going to be as what the transaction number would propose.

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Matti Ahokas, Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Head of Equity Research of Finland [41]

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I know it's early days but since you touched upon the dividend outlook, obviously, the earnings this year will be substantially -- very likely, substantially above last year. But then again, last year your payout ratio was extremely high. So what's your thoughts overall about the actual dividend per share increasing? I know the dividend policy is paid on the payout ratio, but does that -- is that the factor that we should be looking at that the actual dividend per share would increase year-on-year?

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [42]

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Well, in all fairness, so we haven't paid too much attention for the dividend yet. So in our cash flow modeling, so -- I think that we are using that as a placeholder in the last year's dividend. So I think that the fine-tuning will come. And then we have to define or set the guideline for that. And the last year's dividend was unusual in that respect because it was increasing. It was above the EPS. But on the other hand, so from our point of view, the key thing is, clearly, our cash -- excess cash rather than EPS as such. So we don't want to be providing storage services for cash, so it is to be divided to our shareholders when we have excess cash and that is sort of the basis.

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Pia Katila, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - IR Manager [43]

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Thank you. That was all.

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Jukka Ruuska, Asiakastieto Group Oyj - CEO [44]

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Thank you very much.