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Edited Transcript of BAMNB.AS earnings conference call or presentation 20-Feb-19 9:00am GMT

Full Year 2018 Koninklijke BAM Groep NV Earnings Presentation

Bunnik Feb 22, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Koninklijke BAM Groep NV earnings conference call or presentation Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 9:00:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Joost van Galen

Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Head of IR

* L.F. den Houter

Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board

* R. P. Van Wingerden

Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO

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Conference Call Participants

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* Albert Pranger

Kempen & Co. N.V., Research Division - Analyst

* Bart Cuypers

KBC Securities NV, Research Division - Financial Analyst

* Guido Nunes

Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Equity Research Analyst

* Luuk Van Beek

Banque Degroof Petercam S.A., Research Division - Analyst

* Maarten Verbeek

The Idea-Driven Equities Analyses Company - Equity Analyst

* Philip Ngotho

ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst

* Tijs Hollestelle

ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst

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Presentation

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [1]

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Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the results meeting of Royal BAM Group for the full year 2018. My name is Rob van Wingerden, the CEO. And with me is Frans den Houter, our CFO.

On this front slide, you see Europe's first industrial 3D printing factory for concrete. This plant, which opened last Monday, is a partnership between BAM, concrete supplier Beamix and the Eindhoven University of Technology. This innovative technology allows a huge increase in freedom and design and enabling faster and more efficient production with much higher accuracy.

Let's look at the key points of the results. 2018 was a year of good progress for BAM. Most of our businesses reported improved results, and we delivered on the financial outlook we set last February despite the sea lock at IJmuiden in the Netherlands. This held back our results and cash flow, but we have made further steps in derisking the project. And we have reached a principle agreement with the lenders and aim to restart the financing this month. Despite pressure on our trade working capital efficiency, we generated a positive cash flow for the year, and our financial position remained strong. We propose to raise the dividend by EUR 0.04 to EUR 0.14 per ordinary share, taking into account our financial position.

The next slide shows a picture of the historical Coal Drops Yard building, which was recently opened near King's Cross in London's newest district for shopping, food, art and events. And BAM Construct delivered the project by using state-of-the-art BIM modeling.

Let's look at the scorecard for our strategic targets in 2018. The overall trend is positive but we had a hiccup from the sea lock at IJmuiden, and we are not there where we want to be. Our adjusted result margin of 2.1% in 2018 reached the strategic range between 2% to 4%. Our trade working capital efficiency ratio at the end of '18 was outside our target, but we expect to move backwards to the minus 10% during 2019. We improved in all our sustainability areas by reducing our CO2 emissions, becoming more circular and enhancing lives in local communities. 2018's incident frequency was the lowest ever, but every accident is one too many, and we will continue our efforts to prevent accidents and secure the safety of all our employees and partners in all parts of the building process.

Let's look at the sectors, starting with construction and property. The sector had a strong performance in 2018 with the revenue 9% up and an adjusted pretax result of 2.8%. The main driver was the Netherlands. The Dutch residential property development performed well, although there was supply chain pressure on margins in the construction activities. There were more strong results in U.K. and Ireland and the latter supported by claims settlements.

Construction in Germany continued to improve after refocusing in 2016 and reached a margin just above 1%. The modest result in Belgium included some claims settlements and some small project losses. The trade working capital efficiency was minus 12.3% at the year-end and is moving in the right direction. The trade working capital was very strong in the fourth quarter due to the transfer of homes to customers in the Netherlands.

The next picture shows a fine example of inner city development. Our project and area developer, AM, is delivering this project with partner Amvest, who has acquired all 200 private sector rental properties for the investment portfolio of one of its clients.

Let's look at property development in more detail.

Like we said before, demand for new build houses in the Netherlands is strong, but supply is constrained by delays in permitting and supply chain pressure. Our Dutch house sales increased by 6% in 2018, and for '19, we anticipate only slightly higher house sales.

In Q3, we made an impairment for Dutch land positions, where planned new installation of mega wind turbines next door meant our land could not be used for housing development. Including the impairments, the gross property position reduced to EUR 564 million at the end of 2018, and this will move towards our target of EUR 500 million as we use land for production, increase our equity-light developments and look for other ways to monetize our land positions.

Recently BAM was awarded a multiyear performance contract at Schiphol airport. BAM Infra will perform the land side and the underground infrastructure work; and BAM Bouw in fast food, terminal 3 and Schiphol Plaza. The indicative recurring annual revenue is approximately EUR 100 million for the next 9 years, and Schiphol and BAM collaborate based on the relational contract.

Moving on to civil engineering. Revenue for the full year increased in all our civil engineering businesses and by 11% for the whole sector. The adjusted result rose by EUR 78 million in 2018. And that was due to the lower impact from sea lock IJmuiden compared to 2017, a stronger performance in the U.K. and an improved but still low result in Belgium.

BAM International civil engineering activities had a small loss in '18 mainly due to under-recovery of overheads. We are starting to see new investment decisions in oil and gas, and we recently won 2 near-shore projects in Canada. The overall sector margin for the year was 0.6%, and the margin without the impact of the losses at the sea lock IJmuiden was 1.6%, which was disappointing, and clearly, we're committed to improve this.

The order book grew mainly due to the award of multiyear projects in the U.K. and in the Netherlands, and this was partly offset by the de-consolidation from the order book of some projects in Germany because of an accounting change that Frans will explain later. Trade working capital efficiency ended in 2018 at minus 5.6% and was impacted by the sea lock IJmuiden and de-consolidation of the German Argen. Looking ahead, new projects are bringing in new prefinancing, and we are continuing our revitalized working capital program.

In the second half of 2018, we further derisked the sea lock IJmuiden, which some of you visited in December. The first caisson, so on the top of the slide, was successfully immersed, and the lock doors arrived in the Netherlands. The one you can see right here is positioned in the lock so that we can continue our execution of the project. The overall progress is satisfactory, and the next major milestone is the immersing of the second caisson in the second half of the year. Frans will update you on the financing for the project.

The next picture shows the British Antarctic Survey, where BAM was selected by the client, together with BAM Nuttal and BAM International, to modernize its scientific research stations in Antarctica. This picture shows the scientific research base at Rothera, which will be upgraded. The project to modernize U.K. Antarctic and other research facilities is expected to take up to 10 years.

Moving on to PPP. The PPP sector had another good year. The result of EUR 20.2 million came mainly from the existing portfolio plus a book profit on the transfer of a project to the joint venture with PGGM in the first half of 2018. Also, in the first half, PPP won the Afsluitdijk project, and this is a joint venture so it is not reflected in the PPP order book.

The new 900-pupil Skibbereen community school in Cork was opened in October 2018. At 10,500 square meters, this is the largest and final school development in Ireland's government-backed program.

Now I hand over to Frans.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [2]

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Thank you, Rob, and good morning, everyone. Before I take you through the numbers in more detail, I would like to provide more context on 3 accounting standards.

Firstly, we -- with respect to the IFRS 15, we explained the impact of the adoption in our half year 2018 results meeting. The full year 2018 includes a EUR 27 million revenue that had previously been derecognized at the adoption of the new standard. The net impact, however, is smaller since there's an offsetting effect of the revenue that is no longer recognized under the new standard, since the threshold has been moved from more than likely to highly probable.

Secondly, we have revised the accounting treatment of our German joint arrangement, the so-called Argen, following the latest interpretation of IFRS 11. This means we qualified the Argen as a joint venture, where we previously qualified it as a joint operation. As such, they are accounting for at the equity method starting from the 31st of December 2018. The negative impact on the trade working capital efficiency is 0.3%. The order book decrease was about EUR 600 million, and the cash position deteriorated with EUR 16 million.

The third item has no impact on the 2018 numbers but just to inform you already that per the 1st of January 2019, we will adopt IFRS 16, the new standard on leases. We estimate that capitalizing the lease obligations will increase the balance sheet by around EUR 300 million. Also, leases reported up to now as rental cost will be reclassified as depreciation and interest. Both the EBITDA and the EBIT will increase. The negative impact on our capital ratio will be about 120 basis points.

Now let's look at the income statements. If we work down from the sector results, the group overhead this year was a small credit due to our charging model. We aim to allocate all cost to our businesses. The group interest charge increased due to low recovery on intercompany funding. Rob already explained the impairments of the Dutch land bank due to the proposed windmills on the adjacent land strip. The pension one-off of EUR 11 million relates to equalizing the treatment of men and women in certain pension schemes in the U.K. dating from the '90s. This was triggered by a recent court case in U.K., and we recognized the additional liability in the fourth quarter of 2018.

The income tax line in 2018 includes a EUR 72 million noncash, nonoperational impairment of the balance sheet deferred tax assets relating to the Dutch fiscal entity. Part is triggered by the lower performance in our Netherlands activities, and part is due to the lower Dutch corporate income tax rate coming in effect in the coming years. The remaining balance sheet value of the Dutch deferred tax asset is EUR 118 million. All in all, the net results for 2018 was EUR 23.8 million.

Our trade working capital efficiency ratio was minus 8.8%. As mentioned before, this year, we experienced pressure on the trade working capital due to the impact of the sea lock IJmuiden and de-consolidation to the German Argen. In the second half of 2018, we have revitalized our working capital program, and we have retrained 3,500 people. We will continue this in 2019, and the focus will be on improving accounts receivable management by implementing a group-wide credit management tool. And we will focus on shorter billing intervals that will reduce the unbilled work and lower the outstanding retentions we have with clients. We will pay suppliers exactly on time, and of course, we will continue to focus on resolving disputes swiftly and decrease the overdues. As such our strategic target for the trade working capital efficiency remains minus 10%.

The overall outcome for the full year was a positive cash flow of EUR 48 million. Differently from what we expected, we were able to compensate the anticipated EUR 98 million cash out on the sea lock IJmuiden. We had early benefits of the revitalized working capital program, some tailwinds from claims settlements and a lot of Dutch house buyers completed the payments in the fourth quarter for financing reasons, altogether resulting in a positive cash flow.

OpenIJ has reached agreements in principle with the lender syndicate to restart the funding of the project sea lock IJmuiden. Documentation is being finalized, and we aim the first drawn this month -- the first drawn of the payment this month.

The property cash flow was lower, where we benefited in 2017 from the sale of Stadium Zwolle and the portfolio of its land positions. The cash flow from trade working capital was impacted with EUR 92 million by the de-consolidation of the German Argen that I explained. However, most of this amount comes back in the line item other changes in working capital. The increase in net cash position in 2018 was driven by lower interest-bearing debt because of the transfer of a PPP project to the joint venture we have with PGGM. The recourse net cash position improved to EUR 528 million. The capital ratio of 18.5% was almost unchanged over the year due to the low net result, driven by deferred tax and property impairments. Our return on capital employed improved to 7.5% due to the operational results in the sector.

Back to you Rob.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [3]

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Thank you, Frans. Now we move over to our market conditions. Conditions in most of our markets are stable to positive. However, there are uncertainties in the political and economic environment which could affect us. We are closely following developments on Brexit. Our U.K. and Irish order books are strong, and our supply chain arrangements are robust.

The order book is benefiting mostly from the positive market conditions while we maintain our tender discipline to get the risk and reward balance right and improve contract conditions. We are in discussion with public sector clients to improve the risk and reward balance for new projects. Like we did with the A15 highway civil works, we did not bid if we cannot get the right contract terms.

The order book grew in 2018 mainly due to the intake of some multiyear projects, especially in civil engineering in the U.K. Our outlook for the year is that we expect revenue of approximately EUR 7 billion and to further improve the adjusted result before tax margin within the strategic target range of 2% to 4%.

As I said, going to dividend, we are basing our payout on net result adjusted to add back the deferred tax asset impairment. So 40% payout gives EUR 0.14 per share. So all in all, we had good progress in 2018, and we are focused on accelerating execution of our strategy, building the present, creating the future, to meet our strategic targets for 2020.

Finally, I show a recent picture of the progress of the impressive Museum of the Future in Dubai. This is a picture of a couple of days ago. And now we will take your questions.

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Questions and Answers

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [1]

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO. I have 3 questions to start with. The first question is what you were referring to the claims, that you saw positive impact from claims settlements in the Irish business but also in the German business. I know it's a regular course of business or regular part of your business that you always have dealing with claims, but I was wondering if you could maybe quantify the impact a little bit or at least indicate whether it was really much higher than what you've seen in previous years, so how big the impact was. And then in relation to that, of course, also related to your very strong cash generation in the second half of the year. With the Q3 results, you were still guiding for negative cash flow for 2018. It has become a positive cash flow of EUR 100 million nearly, so that's quite a big change. And I appreciate the comments you gave on the reasons for it, but maybe if you could give also a breakdown. So what was impact then indeed from the claims, what was the impact maybe from -- a rough guidance on -- from -- what is the property and the third element? And my last question is on your capital structure. I sense, I mean, a little bit the difficulty in the case with BAM, is that you have a very large net cash position at the end of the year of over EUR 500 million, recourse net cash, but you're not really able to return to shareholders, given that you're also targeting a relatively high capital ratio of 25%. And now with the new IFRS guidance, it's going to get another hit. So how do you look at your capital position? And are we really need -- do we need to wait until you get to 25%, because that will take a number of years, before you would consider doing anything with returning cash to shareholders?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [2]

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Okay. Thank you, Philip. Maybe I'd take the first question on cash flow.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [3]

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Yes.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [4]

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I think the number of claims settlements are indeed normal course of business, and I think the claims you're talking about are all single digit.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [5]

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Related to the cash, your question, the uplift in Q4, if you take it from a [remote] point of view, I think about half of it is due to our hard work improving on the trade working capital program that we explained, and there is the other half that's driven by timing of settlements and agreements with clients that were favorable for us. Now if you then go to your capital structure question, I think there are 2 specific answers. One is on the large net cash position. I think you have to see that in the context of the profile throughout the year, where we really need this money as working capital to drive our business. So I would not say it's all free cash flow, so you cannot draw that conclusion. On the 25%, obviously, that is still the plan to get there. IFRS 16 will have a negative effect, as you say, but we will drive -- driven by the performance of the company and improve the solvency ratio towards the target of 25%.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [6]

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Maybe just to follow up on that. So on the cash inflow, you say half of it is driven by just better working capital management and then the other half by settlements. But if it's only single digits...

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [7]

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The single digits are referring to result, but sometimes the cash that comes with it can be bigger because it's holding up some of the cash. So we have -- in the result, it's single digit, but it frees up a lot of cash, the clients catching up then. So in cash, it's more.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [8]

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Okay. And then just maybe the impact on the transfer of homes, that's one thing that you have mentioned. That's part of the working capital that you. ...

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [9]

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Yes. What you see there is a lot of clients have easy access to mortgages, which resulted in -- also driven by the fiscal regime. There's a push to close these transactions prior to year-end, and we saw an unusual number of transactions in December of people trying to get their house registered in their name. So it's not about the physical process, of course, of building the house, it's about the entitlement of the property.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [10]

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Okay. So -- but that's something that you could say that maybe -- it was a push towards year-end. It would -- seasonality?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [11]

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Yes. But it's more than usual, it's more than usual.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [12]

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More than usual, okay. Then, just still the last question on the capital structure. I appreciate that you have a large working capital stream, so it's not fair to just look at the year-end number. But also at half year, you still also have a net cash position. Is there any moment during the year that actually really turns into a debt position? Because I -- my understanding is, also at the half year, it's the worst situation, close to worst. So if -- I would argue that if you're always in a net cash position, then maybe you're sitting on a bit too much cash as a company.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [13]

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No, there's big fluctuations throughout the year. So the -- and then, at some moment in time, we use the RCF within the quarter. But it's not very frequently, it's not significant amount, but it's just a confirmation that we need this working capital bandwidth throughout the year. So it's definitely not free cash flow that you can put on that big number that you see at year-end.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [14]

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Okay. Just last question then on this. Is there a specific number and/or amount that you have in mind where you think, "Okay, if we've surpassed that number -- that level of net cash position, then we really have to do something with it?" You're now at EUR 550 million.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [15]

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We -- of course, we look at our capital structure all the time. And for the coming period, we just see it fit for purpose. We are focused, as we said, on improving the solvency. And we first, for the coming year, focus on improving the net margin, and we take it from there. So for the coming year, this is not under discussion.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [16]

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING. To follow-up on that, I appreciate the explanation on the swings in trade working capital, but what I also understand is that something like the sea lock project, if you have, let's say, EUR 100 million cash outflow but also you were able to arrange the project financing yourself, it's also putting then pressure on the total balance sheet. So if you, for instance, would have returned EUR 100 million or EUR 150 million to shareholders 2 years ago, you probably would have run into an equity issue by this project. So not only the huge volatility in trade working capital, but I think that you also have, on the back of your minds, the likelihood that something can go wrong on a big project. Is that also an argument?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [17]

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No, I think if you look back on the EUR 98 million you refer to in the end, if you look at the total loss of the project, EUR 106.7 million, now you can take the position that is largely financed all in all. Going forward, we -- as we said, we are continuously focusing on strengthening the company and improving the risk-reward balance that we have. But we don't, of course, anticipate negative [leaders] like these, so it is not the case. So it's not about increasing [faith] in the company. It's about getting a healthy company, a healthy balance sheet and a good solvency that we think fits the basic model that BAM has.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [18]

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But the thing you're referring to indicates that we have to be careful not starting to give away to shareholders the excess cash.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [19]

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Yes. But the beauty is that, now with this kind of worst-case situation behind us, that you have sufficient cash only -- in 1 year from now. Like Philip is mentioning, there's an additional EUR 100 million, I mean, I also would say that you return that to shareholders. I mean, it can also be EUR 75 million, but this seems to be quite a good amount for BAM even in a worst-case scenario.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [20]

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The better we get, the more this discussion gets more appropriate.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [21]

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But Tijs, this is also the consequence of driving the solvency towards 25%, which is clearly the target. So yes, in that process, cash will -- the cash position will strengthen. We will have more equity. But we will, of course, monitor, over the coming years, how that will evolve.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [22]

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We keep the shareholders in mind.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [23]

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Okay, yes. Yes. And then also on the trade working capital, a follow-up. And it's also for my education because if I look at the slide -- so this is 5. The graph on the trade working capital in the Construction and Property division -- is the relatively high amount, is that the reflection of the prepayments from the consumers in the housing market?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [24]

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Yes, there's an element in there.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [25]

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Yes. So that's timing. So that's clear. And then if we move to Slide 9 for the civil engineering unit, you had the same graph for trade working capital. Maybe I'm wrong, but to my understanding, the fourth quarter '17 includes the loss provisions -- the first loss provisions on the sea lock as a creditor. So that improves your trade working capital position. And now the cash outflow is gone, so that explains the big jump to fourth quarter '18. But how should I see it, let's say, on the longer term? So what is the fourth quarter '16 level telling me?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [26]

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So part of the provision is in other working capital, so it's not all in there. So in -- the amount is split. A part is provision, and a part is prefinancing of the banks in 2018. So if you look at that number, you have to split the number into 2 sections. The only part at year-end 2017 is in your trade working capital, and the other part is in -- taken as a provision in the balance sheet.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [27]

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But it is still significant amount, EUR 50 million or so?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [28]

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At year-end '18, you mean?

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [29]

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No, in '17.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [30]

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Yes. The total number is significant, yes. But it's split. So there's a split in trade working capital and in provisions -- as a provision.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [31]

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Yes. And I'm only looking at trade working capital here in this graph.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [32]

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Yes, yes.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [33]

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And your question is where are we heading? To improve this. We are now at minus 4.6%. That needs to be improved. We have new contracts. There's potentially more prefinancing opportunities there. So we will improve. The lock will hopefully get out of -- the impact of the lock gets smaller and smaller, so we need -- everything is aimed to improve the minus [6%].

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [34]

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Yes. Because I'm trying to get my head around on the efficiency program because it seems that the Construction and Property business did all right. So it did not really worsen from what happened in 2015. That's okay, where the one-off explains. But then did the program not start already in civil engineering?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [35]

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If you look at civil, Tijs, it is not only the Netherlands. So it's also related to the U.K., where I think we highlighted in one of the previous quarterly meetings that there is paid-when-paid clauses in U.K. contracts where, by law, you're not authorized -- you need to prove that you've paid your supply chain before you can get payments from the client. So there is also -- very, very difficult to improve your efficiency ratio. So it's not only the Netherlands -- that's my point. It's not only the lock, it's not only the Netherlands, it's the civil business, all over our business lines. And specifically in the U.K., we see also pressure on this number because of the paid-when-paid clauses in civil contracts.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [36]

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Okay. But the improvement that you're guiding for the minus 10% for this year is coming from this?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [37]

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The improvement -- and the program is around, as I said, improving the billing intervals, reducing the retentions. Of course, with -- claim resolutions that we always aim for should also make sure that, on the civil side, we can improve on this number.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [38]

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Okay, that's clear. And then one final question on the PFI division. On Slide 12, the middle graph, the green part of the results, to my understanding, it's live operational concessions who pay, let's say, the quarterly interest. That's -- you can see that as income and then you have a little bit of labor cost, nothing else. And then only the expense is on the financing. So how is your pipeline on the book profits? How does that look like for the next 3 to 5 years? Because, in the past, I remember you had a big more -- a bit more of these book gains.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [39]

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That will go to 1 or 2 per year, normally -- normalized.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [40]

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And that's then between, let's say, EUR 2.5 million and EUR 10 million per annum?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [41]

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Yes. We have from the basic -- our basic operations, you can count in, normally, EUR 50 million, and the book profits could be 1 or 2 per year, could be none a year. I remember, last year or the year before, I don't know, there was none, so it somewhat swings between 0 and 1 or 2.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [42]

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Yes. But the outlook for the coming years is looking quite okay, quite normal...

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [43]

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It depends, of course, how we win the jobs. We are selective in looking at PPP. We are in discussions with our public clients. The risk-reward balance needs to be improved. So that depends on how much do we take in. It's not only in the Netherlands. But the number of projects we take in also determines the number for project we can transfer. Again, it will be in the order of between 0 and 2 per year.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [44]

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And there's also a number of projects that are under construction. So we have 8 projects under construction, contracts that we have been awarded. And as Rob said, going forward, we focus on the quality of the contracts and scope. It needs to fit what we want in the portfolio. And whether it's 1 or 2 per year, that is the [out go].

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [45]

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And all 8 are in JV with the pension fund?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [46]

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Yes, for the Netherlands. So not all 8 are in the Netherlands. So the answer is correct -- incorrect. It's no, only the Dutch ones are in the JV with PGGM.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [47]

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How much Dutch?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [48]

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I need to check that. I don't know how many are in the Netherlands of the 8. I don't know by heart.

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Luuk Van Beek, Banque Degroof Petercam S.A., Research Division - Analyst [49]

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Luuk Van Beek, Degroof Petercam. First question on the U.K., where you mention that you have won several multiyear projects. I wanted to check, are these firm contracts? Or are they more like framework agreements where the customer can scale back the size of the project or change the phasing dependent on financing and Brexit impact?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [50]

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It is multiyear frameworks, and indeed, they can go a bit up or down. If I look to the past, they are a reliable, stable contract flow, deal flow with good margins.

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Luuk Van Beek, Banque Degroof Petercam S.A., Research Division - Analyst [51]

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Okay. And on the Netherlands, you mentioned supply chain pressure. Is it the statement on the whole year? And can you comment on how that developed throughout the year, if it became easier to pass it on to the customer?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [52]

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Yes. If you look at the supply chain pressure, in property, we're able to do it on the sell price. That can be done quite quickly. The supply chain, there is some phasing. And I think we will grow to a new balance later this year or early next year as now there's still some tension. But it goes together. The demand and the supply gets better and better because the supply chain pressure came up quite quickly, and that balances out the rest of the year and next year.

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Luuk Van Beek, Banque Degroof Petercam S.A., Research Division - Analyst [53]

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Okay. And my final question on the impairments, on the tax assets in the Netherlands. What exactly triggered this impairment? Is it a change in the assumptions that you use to calculate collectability?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [54]

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It's a mixed bag. So first of all, of course, is the corporate income tax rate that is driven by law. Then, if you look at the running year, we highlighted already the impairments of the Dutch land position. And of course, IJmuiden doesn't have a good effect on the performance of the Dutch fiscal entity. So part of it is related to 2018. If you then look at the outlook for the coming years, we took a slightly more modest view on the Dutch revenue and related margin for the fiscal entity, which is predominantly in civil.

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Albert Pranger, Kempen & Co. N.V., Research Division - Analyst [55]

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Albert Pranger, Kempen. Just one question from my side. It would be great if you could shed a bit more light on what you see happening in the Dutch housing sales and the ability to grow that further. We've seen in this quarter -- or in this year that it's a very strong driver of your overall result. With the permitting process being restrained, I'm really curious how you see this going forward and whether you see local governments putting more people to work in order to free up more buildable plots, so to say.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [56]

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Yes. I understand the question. We did 6% up last year. We do not anticipate a similar growth this year because the amount we can produce is constrained by permitting, by -- and a little bit supply chain. So we are, like an industry, having discussions, how can we increase the production in the development area. If you stay in a city, it usually takes a lot of time. It's complicated. So you need to go to the edges of the cities, and that will take some time to identify plots and go through the whole procedure. But I sense there is a lot of pressure also in the governments to get production up, so my best guess is that we get it stable but not largely up because things take time. So -- but on the demand side, I think it stays healthy for the coming years.

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Albert Pranger, Kempen & Co. N.V., Research Division - Analyst [57]

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Okay. And if you then -- how does that then -- how is that then connected to your gross property position? Because you aim to run that down sub EUR 500 million, if I'm correct. You're still a notch above, but with the demand side remaining healthy, there's, I think, a little pull towards increasing that position rather than running it down. So how do you manage that internally?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [58]

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You're right. So the EUR 564 million at the moment is a composition of impaired land, where there's not so much profit opportunity anymore. So there is more monetizing. We do that on a constant basis, how can we take that bucket out of the EUR 564 million. That's less quality on impaired land. And indeed, you're right, to get the engine -- to keep the engine running, also new stuff in. But there, we use the equity-light method, where we create our access before we enter, so that limits the investment, the money and the capital to be invested. So that's the go forward. So we increase the quality of the EUR 564 million and reduce it by monetizing the impaired land, and we keep the engine running by now developing on those lands. And so that will reduce part of the EUR 654 million (sic) [EUR 564 million], and we use equity-light formula to limit as much as possible the capital we need to invest.

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Bart Cuypers, KBC Securities NV, Research Division - Financial Analyst [59]

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Bart Cuypers, KBC. Two questions from my side. Frans, you mentioned the impact of IFRS 16 on EBIT and EBITDA increasing. Is it -- do you give a rough estimation of how much roughly, a ballpark figure? And then secondly, Ireland. Ireland continues to develop positively. There are some rumors about the children's hospital in Dublin, that, that project is sizing up to be larger than initially anticipated. Is that another project that could be new costs -- additional costs that were not foreseen? Or is there another explanation for that particular project?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [60]

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I think you're right. Frans, you take the IFRS.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [61]

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Yes.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [62]

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So Ireland is a good market. We are successful in that country for many years now. And yes, we took in a new children's hospital. It is under execution, and recently, there's a lot of publicity because there is, in the market, in the political arena, the perception that there's uncontrolled cost overrun. From our perspective, it's definitely not. We went through a very thorough price process, and let's say, the inner circle of the project know that we are doing okay and we are behaving exactly as we have to in this process. But there is some turmoil in the political arena because there's a perceived overrun. Our contract is solid, prices are solid, our process is solid, and the project is in execution.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [63]

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Okay. So your IFRS 16 question, we mentioned an estimated number of EUR 300 million. We will do a true-up of that number in the coming half year, and then we disclose the exact number in the half year 2019 numbers.

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Guido Nunes, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Equity Research Analyst [64]

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Guido Nunes, Kepler Cheuvreux. First question on the deferred tax asset impairment. You explained the 3 buckets, but I'm interested in the magnitude of each bucket and more specifically, the assumptions that have been lowered for future profitability of the Dutch fiscal entity. Second question is on Infra order book. Can you talk a bit about the quality of that, what in there is legacy projects, what in there is DBFM projects and so on? And lastly, more of a conceptual question. Frans, you talked about the importance of getting prepayments. Would you be willing to sacrifice, say, a percent of project value in order to get prepayments for any said project?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [65]

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So maybe, let me take the first and the third question. On DTA, EUR 26 million is related to the corporate income tax elements, and the remaining part is a mix of 2018, which is about EUR 10 million. And then the remaining EUR 36 million is 2019 and beyond. Those are the 3 buckets. Sacrificing margin to get -- to bring payments forward, I think it depends on the contracts and the margin, of course, so it's not -- and how much can you bring forward with which amount. So you have to -- have more details to understand. But I think we -- in a healthy contracts environment for a construction company, you should have both. You should have a high margin and favorable financing profile on your projects and an acceptable risk, of course.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [66]

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And on the order book Infra, I think it's getting more healthy since we have tender discipline. We're very much focused on the risk and reward balance. We have our tender-stage gate procedure in place. There's peer reviews. There are tender -- all the teams challenging tender teams to make sure that we get in the right jobs in terms of risk profile and margin. So I think the order book is improving, and that's where we're aiming for. As I told you, we want to improve also on the Infra side. And I think, on the legacy side, I think the risks are reducing. [IJmuiden,] the risk is reducing. We lowered one case, and the doors are there. There are no new big problems coming in. So going forward, everything is aimed to improve the buckets in the Infra order book.

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Guido Nunes, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Equity Research Analyst [67]

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Just to get a bit more clarity. Of the EUR 5 billion roughly in order book for Infra, how much of that would still be legacy pre-stage gate tendering process?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [68]

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0.

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Guido Nunes, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Equity Research Analyst [69]

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0, okay. And maybe following up on Bart's question on the hospital. You have it under control, you say. But is there a risk that you might run into a cost overrun and that would be the responsibility of BAM?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [70]

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As we see it now, no.

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Guido Nunes, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Equity Research Analyst [71]

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But also not possible at all?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [72]

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Yes, 100% secure, but -- we are absolutely confident we're okay there.

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Albert Pranger, Kempen & Co. N.V., Research Division - Analyst [73]

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Albert Pranger, Kempen. One follow-up from my side. I remember the Dutch financial Dagblad reporting on the dispute you have with the supplier of the doors of the sea lock. Can you give us a bit more color on what the dispute is about and whether or not we should anticipate, let's say, any reimbursements from the South Korean supplier?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [74]

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In the newspaper, we read that they are going to seize the -- they want to seize the doors. We countered that, and we make sure that our operations are -- cannot to be affected. But we haven't received that claim yet. Anyway, the first ruling by the judge was in our favor. So we were confident there. And we secured our progress on the project, and we haven't received any claim from the client [venue] up until now.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [75]

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I had basically the same question. Because in the third quarter, there was also a small additional loss provision for the sea lock. Does that relate to this dispute?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [76]

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No.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [77]

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It's something else?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [78]

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Yes, small executional stuff.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [79]

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Okay. And maybe I'm missing it in the press release, but what is the actual revenue of the property business in '18?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [80]

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The revenue or the result?

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [81]

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The result, I can see, EUR 52.9 million. But the revenue?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [82]

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It's -- do we disclose that? No.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [83]

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It will be disclosed in the annual report.

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Joost van Galen, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Head of IR [84]

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There is a number. I don't have it by heart, but there's a lot of revenue coming from joint ventures as well. So that's in your results from joint ventures and associates.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [85]

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The revenue number we have to look up.

We are focused on margin.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [86]

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Because last year -- yes, last year, it was still a separate division, so I would say -- yes.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [87]

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Okay.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [88]

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The revenue of the sea lock in 2018, around?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [89]

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We focus on margin. Cash revenue...

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [90]

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Revenue at the sea lock.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [91]

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We have to check the progress -- physical progress. There's a calculation. I don't know it by heart. We need to check.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [92]

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I think the overall progress of the project is over 50% now.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [93]

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Yes, but is it...

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [94]

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In '18 -- we'll take it offline, and Joost will tell you.

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Joost van Galen, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Head of IR [95]

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We had a cash out of about EUR 100 million on the lock, our share. So that is at least what we did. So we did some work on that. So I think roughly....

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [96]

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Would be in that ballpark, yes. 20% progress...

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Joost van Galen, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Head of IR [97]

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We financed the progress in 2018 ourselves.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [98]

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Yes. So I still don't know why you cannot give me just a revenue number, around.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [99]

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If I have to give you an estimate, it's about 50 to 75. Well, that's based on the progress on the project and the revenue I know.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [100]

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And what I see with a lot of competitors is that the nonresidential building markets in the Netherlands was still difficult, but you see in the forecast from the [ABI] that it is now really turning. So is that business -- within BAM, is that breakeven? Is it already profitable?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [101]

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It's profitable, and now we see good opportunities. It's definitely through its deepest point.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [102]

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Okay. And final question. There was something about joining forces in the concrete market in the Netherlands.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [103]

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Concrete or asphalt?

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [104]

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Asphalt, yes, with Heijmans, I believe. You were looking to -- what are exactly the benefits, more utilization, limit...

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [105]

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More innovation, sharing knowledge, sustainability scale, better position in the market. We are proposing it. All the appropriate authorities are checking out whether it's allowed under all kinds of laws and everything. But it is those 4 elements that we are aiming for.

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Tijs Hollestelle, ING Groep N.V., Research Division - Research Analyst [106]

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And that then goes off balance sheet -- shortens your balance sheet?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [107]

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Yes. It also limits CapEx.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [108]

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Well, that's not a driver. That's...

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [109]

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Yes. Well, you talk early double digit.

Okay. You?

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [110]

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO. A few follow-ups from my side. First of all, on the -- you indicated that you've prefinanced a part -- large part on the sea lock yourself. So with the new arrangement, hopefully, in place this month or next month, does it also mean that your recourse net cash position will improve directly so that part of what you've prefinanced, you can use it from the loan? Or is it the part that you've prefinanced is actually the part that you would have prefinanced already during the remainder of the project? So that's my first question. Then my second question is on the IFRS 15. I know you already commented on it. So there was a positive impact of EUR 27 million in 2018. You're no longer tracking what it would have been under the old regime. But still, can you give a bit of an indication if this EUR 27 million, is it also in -- is it a normal number that you would normally see also, for example in 2019, being recognized? Or is this somewhat higher than what we would have -- what we can expect? And then my last question is just more a confirmation. You took an impairment on your property assets in Q3 that's on impaired land positions. I assume that there wasn't any profit contribution from those positions in Q4, right? It's not that you impaired them?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [111]

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Yes, so maybe 1 and 2. EUR 98 million, we mentioned as the cash out over the year. That is a combination of loss financing and of standing in to the funding stop of the banks. If you look forward, the total loss in the project is EUR 106.7 million. So you can still expect, overall, a small cash out. You will see, of course, a temporary improvement on the cash position, but it will fade out over time because we still have additional funding to do. So it is a process that we have where we, on a quarterly basis, determine progress, and then we split the cash basically in those 2 elements. So I would say, overall, going forward, a small cash out.

Second, on the EUR 27 million, yes, as we said the EUR 27 million, those are the, well, so-called reversals coming back from the past. They are offset by the fact that we have the current claims that we value today under the new IFRS as a lower number because we have raised the threshold. We don't -- It's very -- we cannot quantify that number because you have to then go to -- back to the old IFRS regime and compare the positions. So for the [adder] you can imagine there are literally thousands of positions, small and bigger claims. Each of them, you do a -- you take a position, and we do that now against a highly probable criterium. If you want to have the answer to your questions, you have to go to the old regime, do it at the more-than-likely principle and understand what the delta is. So we know it's offsetting the EUR 27 million. It can be a small number, it can be a big number, it can even be bigger than EUR 27 million so it's a minus. We don't know. But for transparency, we track and report it for this year, but we will stop doing that because we have stepped over to IFRS 15, and that is how we report now.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [112]

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But for your -- in your management information system, you don't have any reporting on what is still probable claims that should be rewarded but not recognized? That's not something that you....

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [113]

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No, you have to -- in your accounting manual, you have quantification of how likely a claim is in various stages, but we don't run complete consolidated books on that. So you do that -- per position, you take a view and you try, in the end, to understand, "Are you highly probable, yes or no?" But we don't -- yes, we don't run parallel books and then can compare the delta of the whole company. That's undoable.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [114]

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Okay. And last question, this is a little bit on 2019 guidance. You indicated that you expect to make continued progress in improving your PBT margin. I'm wondering, would you be confident to already say that you would -- you expect to improve your PBT margin also on an underlying basis, corrected after the sea lock project? So in other words, your PBT would have been 2.6% this year without the sea lock loss. Are you confident that you can -- you're able to improve 2019 from that level?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [115]

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Yes. Well, the outlook as we framed it, so we want to improve from the number we realized in 2018, which is the 2.1%. If you look at the total strategic process, we are now -- it's the first year that we are in that range. There's some uncertainties. Some things can be lumpy, claims, Brexit, some uncertainties. We're happy that we are now in the range. And we are absolutely aiming for it to stay there and go as fast and as high as possible. But it is now that we take it from 2.1%. And I understand you're calculating back, but the departures is 2.1% and go as fast as -- as quickly as we want -- as we can.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [116]

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Just one last question then. The uncertainties that -- you mentioned some uncertainties, but are there specific things that you -- is it general uncertainties?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [117]

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General, absolutely general.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [118]

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Not project specific?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [119]

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No, general.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [120]

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Maybe Tijs, coming back to your question. The turnover on IJmuiden 2018 was EUR 70 million, which is in the earlier reported range.

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Philip Ngotho, ABN AMRO Bank N.V., Research Division - Analyst [121]

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The underlying margin is even higher?

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [122]

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Different story.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [123]

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Any other questions?

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Maarten Verbeek, The Idea-Driven Equities Analyses Company - Equity Analyst [124]

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Maarten Verbeek, The Idea. Could you give some information about your German joint ventures? You mentioned EUR 117 million of revenues. Can you say something about the profitability and in which divisions they'll operate? Because you took out some -- over EUR 600 million in your order book.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [125]

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Yes. So it's in both divisions. So in both divisions, we have joint operations that we now qualify as joint ventures. Well, we said it's cash impact is about EUR 16 million that we can no longer consolidate; order book, EUR 629 million. The revenue on exactly this joint venture that -- I would have to check because it's in both companies' trade working capital effect. As we said, this is plus [0.2%].

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Maarten Verbeek, The Idea-Driven Equities Analyses Company - Equity Analyst [126]

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Can we talk about profitability?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [127]

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We're also targeting within the range, of course, and the joint ventures are mostly in civil.

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Maarten Verbeek, The Idea-Driven Equities Analyses Company - Equity Analyst [128]

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Okay. When I look at the German now, they make a margin of about 1%.

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [129]

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In construction, yes. We came from a big loss in 2016. We changed the focus in the market. And from -- going from this loss to 0, we are now 1%, and going forward, it looks good.

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Maarten Verbeek, The Idea-Driven Equities Analyses Company - Equity Analyst [130]

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And could you provide some information about your receivables overdue, the long ones?

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R. P. Van Wingerden, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - Chairman of the Executive Board & CEO [131]

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Yes. In Germany, it's sometimes tough, long court cases, but that's from the previous market we were targeting. So there will be -- it will take some time to get it all out, but there are not a lot new ones coming in because we have a different client base we're targeting.

Any other questions? If not, then this will bring us to the end of this session. I would like to thank you very much for your attention and questions. And we are looking forward to update you on the trading on the 9th of May. Thank you very much for being here.

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L.F. den Houter, Koninklijke BAM Groep nv - CFO & Member of Management Board [132]

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Thank you.