U.S. markets closed

Edited Transcript of BDMN.JK earnings conference call or presentation 19-Feb-20 10:00am GMT

Full Year 2019 Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk PT Earnings Call

Jakarta Mar 3, 2020 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk PT earnings conference call or presentation Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:00:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

================================================================================

Corporate Participants

================================================================================

* Michellina Laksmi Triwardhany

PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - VP Director

* Reza Iskandar

PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning

* Tjandra Muljono

PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director

* Yasushi Itagaki

PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - President Director

================================================================================

Conference Call Participants

================================================================================

* Laurensius Teiseran

CIMB Research - Analyst

* Timothy Handerson;Indo Premier;Analyst

* Yulinda Hartanto

Morgan Stanley, Research Division - Research Associate

================================================================================

Presentation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good afternoon. Thank you for coming, and welcome to our full year 2019 financial results analyst briefing. Welcome to those of you who joined in person as well as those who are joining through teleconference as well as through Webex. As usual, we will run through our full year results by Pak Muljono. But before that, we will invite Pak Yasushi Itagaki, our CEO, to open with a few remarks and highlights of our strategy going forward. Pak, yes, go ahead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yasushi Itagaki, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - President Director [2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for coming to our briefing. As introduced, I first like to walk you through on some of the highlights of our new strategy.

If you look at -- go in next page, yes, this Page 2. As you know, after year 2019, after the completion of the acquisition by MUFG along with the merger with BNP and new appointment of the new management, including myself, we review everything, and we set out our new strategy for Danamon. With the new shareholder, MUFG, who is a real bank with lots of operational knowledge and know-how, customer base, technology and global network and particularly long-term commitment to Indonesia and Danamon, unlike investment fund, Danamon now sharpened our focus more on customer expansion, business expansion and geared more towards long-term sustainable growth.

In this our new journey, in terms of the business expansion, ecosystem is a keyword. We target and approach customers not as individual basis but as to capture -- try to capture the entire whole supply chain ecosystem, leveraging the strong relationship with large corporate customers by MUFG. MUFG has been helping us a lot in referring to such big corporate customers where we, Danamon, jump into their suppliers and distributors.

In the funding side, CASA is king, our highest priority. And we see a very good early traction of CASA, solid growth, as explained by Pak Mul, from middle of last year. Again, our approach is institutional approach, not an individual approach through supply chain finance, payroll and digital partnership. These are the key drivers capturing customers in the ecosystem. Again, with MUFG, our efforts and initiatives are empowered and accelerating.

To sustain our business growth and expansion, we recognize that our foundation remains underinvested. And we will invest more in key infrastructure, like human capital, IT and digital and branding. MUFG is again supportive with our long-term investment and approach. So MUFG, in a sense, is a sort of enabler across all initiatives.

Moving to the next page, Page 3. This page sort of illustrates the ecosystem and the typical value proposition which we provide across this system, along with some early wins in our joint initiatives. If you look at the picture on the top, we've got the sole exclusive mandate from Daimler, Mercedes-Benz passenger cars and commercial cars, whereby we, Danamon, are providing distributor finances across their distributors. The picture on the middle is a similar arrangement with Honda. We provide one of the key main Honda distributors and their sub-distributors similar services. The one on the bottom is about signing of our MOU with Mitsubishi Corporation and Sinar Mas Land, whereby we provide a mortgage loan. So likewise, we are starting to penetrate into the customers in the ecosystem, which is originated from global or Japanese corporate customers. But we will see more of these transactions this year onwards.

Next page. Another sort of a strategic epoch that we celebrated last year is this divestment of Adira Insurance and with partnership -- divestment to and partnership with Zurich Life. In this transaction, we repositioned general insurance business, and we'll focus more on distribution side of the insurance businesses, leveraging Danamon Group branch network. As you see, proceeds from the transaction will be used to: one, invest in our growth strategy; two, strengthen our balance sheet; and three, additional return to shareholders.

These are the sort of highlights of the events and the strategy going forward. And for detail, I will pass on to Pak Muljono for detail. Muljono?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. So I go through the full year 2019 financial highlights. So we go to Page #6. So excluding micro, loan portfolio and trade finance grew 5% year-on-year. Mortgage, automotive and enterprise registered healthy growth of 16%, 7% and 6%, respectively. On the funding, very happy to share that our granular fundings, CASA and TD regular, registered growth of 23% year-on-year. CASA itself grew by 7% and lead by saving accounts growth by 13% year-on-year. With this, our CASA ratio improved to 49.7% at year-end. This achievement improved our cost of fund by 20 basis points and NIM by approximately 30 basis points from Q3 to Q4 2019.

On the asset quality, NPL ratio improved by 20 basis points Q-on-Q to 3%, and restructured loan ratio improved by 30 basis points year-on-year to 2.3% of total loans. We also would like to share that some of the proceeds from default transaction has been utilized to strengthen our balance sheet by adding provision in Q4 2019.

On the profitability, NPAT stood at IDR 4.07 trillion and so far the highest for Bank Danamon. ROA remained at steady 2.1% and ROE at 10.3%.

Next, on the detailed balance sheet highlight, Page #7, we look at the summary of our balance sheet as of 31st December 2019 compared to 2018. The significant increase in government bonds represent a higher balance in the bondholding due to the excess of liquidity.

Next, on the income statement, Page #8. Full year 2019, as I mentioned, our NPAT was IDR 4.07 trillion or increased by 4% compared to 2018. So if you see the details, nonoperating income largely represent the gains from default transaction, as I just mentioned, yes. Well, the asset quality is manageable. We added provision in Q4 to increase our coverage ratio.

So next, on the key financial ratio, Page #9. Our NIM year-on-year declined by 60 basis points due to the lower loan yield by about 30 basis points and higher cost of fund by about like 50 basis points. Having said that, our granular deposit, as I mentioned, consists of CASA and TD regular, have increased significantly. And this resulted our NIM in Q-on-Q improved by 30 basis points. CASA ratio, 49.7% at 31st of December compared to last year, about 47.1%. RIM remained healthy at 99.7%, and currently, we have plenty of cash after default transaction. NPL ratio gross at 3%, higher by 30 basis points compared to last year but improved 20 basis points compared to last quarter. And loan loss coverage at 113%, slightly lower compared to last year but significantly improved compared to the last quarter. The loss coverage will increase significantly post-implementation of IFRS 9. And CAR remained very strong at 24.2%.

Next, the Page #10, we see the -- on the funding side, the strong funding supported by the CASA and granular deposit. As part of our funding strategy, we have issued IDR 2 trillion bonds in May 2019 under the sale program with a total program of IDR 5 trillion to provide stable long-term funding for the bank. So the remaining balance of IDR 3 trillion can be withdrawn anytime in 2020 to support the business growth. As I mentioned earlier, our RIM remained healthy, and currently, we have plenty of liquidity.

Next, on the -- we've got various initiatives to improve our granular funding capability through Danamon Way and established digital platform. With this, we are able to improve new-to-bank acquisition and new-to-bank penetration on digital.

Next, on Page #12. On the capital structure, we see that CAR bank only at 24.6% and consol at 24.2% and almost 100% in Tier 1 capital. In Q4 2019, Danamon managed to increase capital -- total capital to reach BUKU 4.

Next, the growth in key segments, detailed loan composition and loan growth in Adira Finance, enterprise, SME and consumer, the details. So similar to the industry, loan growth was lower than expected. However, growth in mortgage and Adira Finance was above those of the industry.

Next, on the Adira Finance. Despite the auto industry slowdown in 2019, Adira Finance was able to deliver 7% loan growth year-on-year, which mainly supported from the 2-wheeler.

Next, NPL and NPL ratio, we see that the NPL percentage of total loan and comparison between bank and the industry. Both NPL amount and ratio improved in Q4 2019.

And then on Page 17, the detailed cost of credit as a percentage to average loan balance and also restructured loan as a percentage of total loan. As mentioned before, CoC increased in Q4 2019 to boost coverage. Restructured loan improved both on a Q on-Q and year-on-year basis. And at 2.3%, restructured loans make up only a small portion of our portfolio.

So that's all I have for the financial highlights.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [4]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, Pak Yas and Pak Mul. Next, we will open the floor for questions. So if you have questions, please raise your hand. We have mics ready to...

================================================================================

Questions and Answers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Analyst, [1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congratulations on your full year results. I'd like to ask some questions. First one, regarding the synergy progress with the Japanese companies. How is it growing? How much the additional contribution from these Japanese companies to your lendings and savings in particular? Then the second question. Do you see this coronavirus to impact on your supply chain financing business going forward in 2020? And then the third question would be, how is your fee income strategy? Are you aiming for better recovery or more to fee income from your digitalized initiatives? And the fourth question would be, how's your NIM outlook and then credit costs, loan growth for this year?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, can we also have your name and your firm?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Analyst, [3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My name is [Iffie] from Trimegah Sekuritas.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [4]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we can go straight to answering the question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yasushi Itagaki, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - President Director [5]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All right. Thank you for that questions. Let me start with in terms of the synergy with Japanese corporates and its contribution to the entire Bank Danamon's loan growth, first of all, it's not just synergy with Japanese corporates, with all MNCs, global corporates, like Daimler, Mercedes that's a German company. MUFG has a very broad customer portfolio. Roughly half-and-half, half Japanese, half non-Japanese, meaning European, American MNC corporates. In our sort of estimate, these synergy efforts will bring us -- I mean contribute to Danamon's loan growth by around 25% to 30%. So 25% to 30% of the loan growth is somewhat associated with this synergy with MUFG. That's sort of our expectation and the prospective on the synergy impact, okay?

Coronavirus. I think nobody can predict what this future would be. But related to your question of how that affects our supply chain finance, our supply chain finance is mostly focused on domestic supply chain. Of course, we intend to expand our scope of services to cross-border, but currently, what our value proposition is centered around domestic supply chain, yes. But in terms of coronavirus, I think that through our day-to-day communication, conversation with our customers, absolutely, it's impacting our customers. Of course, in tourism industries, they are heavily affected, and some of the customers with imports and exports businesses, they are being -- gradually being impacted by these virus effects. But we have to wait and see how this pandemic will be stabilized.

For the third question?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [6]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fee income strategy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yasushi Itagaki, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - President Director [7]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, fee income and digital?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [8]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michellina Laksmi Triwardhany, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - VP Director [9]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the fee income -- the credit-related fee income actually contributed about 65% of Danamon total fee-based income. A lot of our focus on the noncredit-related is in the wealth management, which includes bancassurance, mutual fund, FX and bonds. So a lot of our initiatives that we have started to take since last year is how can we strengthen our proposition on the wealth management side. I think -- and the sale of Adira Insurance is also quite strategic in a sense that not only it brings obviously gains to the franchise, but honestly, with Zurich, we expect it brings something different and new to benefit the market better.

And so a lot of -- on the digital front, we focus on having features and services to allow customers -- to make it easy for our customers to use the -- to transact, which includes -- one of the things that we did on digital that's quite successful is the online onboarding, which, as mentioned by Pak Mul, is about 13% of the new customers. And I think TD Online is also gaining big traction. It grew by 152% and now contribute about 12% of our total TD.

So we still see a lot of these areas to be growing very fast. And we want to make sure that the -- our digital strategy creates a better customer experience for our customers to simplify the processes and to make it easy for our staff also to conduct their work and also to partnering with all the fintech as well as e-commerce platforms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [10]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question is on NIM outlook and CoC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Company Representative, [11]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think on the CoC, I can just add that we -- in 2018, we were about 2.5%, slightly higher this year based on what Pak Yas told you in that period, taking some extra provisions in Q4. But in 2020, we should go back to the same kind of level as 2018, so around 2.5%.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [12]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. NIMs, full year 2019, our NIM is about like 8.3%. And for 2020, we believe that it's going to be around that level. And we hope that we have some opportunity -- if we are able to cut the rate this year, any of the cut will -- obviously benefiting us and will improve our NIMs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [13]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, Pak Mul. Do we have any more questions? Yes, go ahead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yulinda Hartanto, Morgan Stanley, Research Division - Research Associate [14]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My name is Yuli from Morgan Stanley. I have several questions. First, regarding the credit-related fee, I realize that in the 4Q, there is a quite significant jump in the credit-related fee. Can you give some color on the background? And second, my question is on the CAR. You have a quite high CAR position, 24%. Just I would like to ask some color whether you have planned to increase your dividend payout. And then my third question, whether you can give us some color on the IFRS 9 impacts? And then the fourth regarding the TD Online that surged 150% plus. Can you explain like what drives the growth and then whether it will sustainable or not?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [15]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the questions. Credit-related fee significant increase in Q4 is basically related to the performance links from the Adira Insurance, yes. Again, it's related to the performance links.

CAR position, yes, is 24.2% consol. As we mentioned earlier that we are looking for -- to return some of these to the shareholders, our shareholders.

The third question on the IFRS 9, so the impact to the bank, I think, in terms of the provision is increased by about like 35% to 38%, slightly lower than 40% and, on CAR, is lower than 100 basis points. TD Online?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [16]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next question is about TD Online.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michellina Laksmi Triwardhany, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - VP Director [17]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TD Online -- sorry. So the TD Online, it shows a very positive traction last year. And finally, a lot of our focus is a little [take a look at] where is the hard work in ensuring that is -- actually in educating the customers. So we put a lot of effort from the frontliners, people at the branches, it's actually to call the clients or when the clients come, to explain feature, what are the features available in our D-Bank. So what we noticed is that once the customer try it, they will use it more and actually put more money on the TD Online. So we believe that it will still show a very strong number for this year because it's still at the very early stage and the potential is actually quite significant as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [18]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, Bu Dhany. Do we have more question? Yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laurensius Teiseran, CIMB Research - Analyst [19]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. My name is Lau from CIMB. I have 2 questions. Question number one is just general -- question is about the growth, basically, right? Because one of the reasons on the weakness on Danamon basically in the past couple of years is just that growth has been quite weak, especially for loan growth, excluding the micro for 2019 was 5%. So my question is, so when do you think that we can start seeing growth to be at least in line with industry level, if not above that? Would 2020 be that year or not yet? So that's the first question.

My second question is, of course, the IFRS 9 equity haircut may help your ROE, and more payout could also help that. But can you maybe give a picture on what your ROE aspiration and the time line to reach that number?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [20]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the question. On the growth, basically, I think, again, we have shared this in the previous briefing, that we have 4 engine of growth. So basically, those are auto financing through Adira Finance and then enterprise banking, SME and consumer. So for 2020, if you look at the growth that we're targeting, our consumer and enterprise banking grow at the double digits. And when we look at the Adira Finance, because of the industry, we still are targeting higher single-digit growth, similar with our SME.

On the ROE, basically, we hope that we can target a -- maintain the same ROE. Obviously, we know that going to be -- not going to be easy, but yes. Yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yasushi Itagaki, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - President Director [21]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me add a bit of the -- our sort of estimate for our loan growth. You're right, in the past, I think we are weaker in terms of the loan growth. But as I explained to you, with new shareholder, the way we play is going to be different, right? So it's not our just sole play, but it's more joint play with our new shareholder. They bring us lots of financing opportunities. That's one.

Second, which I didn't mention, is that with a new shareholder, with a new management, we are sort of prudently expanding our risk appetite because with the new shareholder, MUFG, we are able to leverage their industrial knowledge or their capability of credit structuring and so forth. So we are better equipped in terms of risk assessment or transaction structuring.

But more importantly, we -- although we sort of prudently expand our risk appetite, but we try to make us, Danamon, be as operating bank. As long as we get the operating account, we have better visibility, better control of the cash flows. So it's a very basic, very basics of commercial banker, but we sharpen our focus as being a commercial bank such that we are able to, with some prudence, expand our risk appetite. This is another sort of a driver, how to grow our loan particularly in the EB area.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [22]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you. We have a question from the Webex. When we mention investment in human capital, what will we do? And then what is the cost or the growth will be in 2020 and 2021? I think the OpEx basically.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yasushi Itagaki, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - President Director [23]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure. Let's say, particularly, as I said before, we put more additional budget for investment in human capital, digital and branding or marketing. In terms of human capital, it's not just simply adjusting compensation. That's a part of our investment. We sort of have -- create more sort of incentive mechanism for people working on the sales forces. Also we give more opportunity for learning, training and everything. So that's all inclusive of our investment in human capital.

Also under this digitalization, we need to give opportunity for re-skilling or upskilling. That's also a part of the learning on development. But at the same time, yes, also we do some additional recruiting of the sales forces. But I think that all in all, although we put more investment on those key infrastructure, but at the same time, we continue on restructuring or optimizing our organization. Net-net, we maintain positive operating leverage. So within that discipline band, we put more focus on investment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [24]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have more questions from the floor?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Timothy Handerson;Indo Premier;Analyst, [25]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My name is Timothy from Indo Premier. A couple of questions from me, if I may. Can you give some color on the increased NPL for agriculture and construction sectors? And also on the SME, you mentioned about double-digit growth target for 2020. Can you share a bit about what kind of specific sector are you aiming in the SME segment to grow in? And what is the NPL coverage ratio for the SME segment right now? And the last one would be, how much write-off did you -- how much loan did you write off in the full year '19?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [26]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The increase on NPL for agriculture and construction actually resulted because of the lower loan balances there for these 2 segments. So especially, what happened is that the increase in NPL itself actually took place. There was an increase in NPL in construction in our SME segment basically. But what happened -- what actually drives the ratio to spike up so much was more of the reduction in the overall loan balance in that sector, in the construction sector. So in our EB, for example, the overall loan balance in construction sector actually shrunk. That was the reason why the overall ratio for the bank seemed to increase significantly.

The same thing for agri, it's also the same basically. But for agri, actually, there is not much amount increase of loan outstanding in both SME and enterprise banking. What happened was that there was a reduction in loan balance. So that's the background behind it. NPL coverage itself -- okay.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Company Representative, [27]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SME, right? On SME is around 40%.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Timothy Handerson;Indo Premier;Analyst, [28]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is that the IFRS 9?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Company Representative, [29]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, that is before IFRS 9.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Timothy Handerson;Indo Premier;Analyst, [30]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After IFRS 9?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Company Representative, [31]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think after IFRS 9, it should be slightly higher, but I don't have a number -- the January number right now. But our 40% in SME has typically been similar for quite a while now. Our LLP coverage dropped this year in Q2 and Q3. But based on additional provisioning we took in Q4, we brought it back up. So SME is over 40% and bank-wide has gone above 113%.

I think one more question you asked on the written-off amount. I think the total written-off amount in the year was IDR 5.7 trillion. This is compared to about IDR 4.6 trillion the year before. In basis points, it's a 50 basis point increase.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [32]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you. Do you have any more questions? There's one question again from the web. How much is the payout to be from FY '19 earnings in AI sales? And then what is the rationale to become BUKU 4 bank?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [33]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think in terms of payout ratio, we still have not really decided. We will decide it very soon, yes, so in the -- our AGMS. And the rationale is become BUKU 4, I guess, we hope that with BUKU 4 will improve the banks in terms of the -- what do you call this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unidentified Company Representative, [34]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Access.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjandra Muljono, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - CFO & Director [35]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The access to this e-money, yes, that we hope that going forward will improve our funding and CASA ratio, yes. Yes, yes. As I mentioned earlier on the dividend, due to this capital gain from default, we may increase the return to our shareholder some of the capital gain will be returned to the shareholder.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reza Iskandar, PT Bank Danamon Indonesia Tbk - Head of IR & Corporate Planning [36]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, Pak Mul. Do we have any more questions? Maybe one more question? If not, thank you for coming. We will end the event, and -- but some of us will be around if you have further questions. Thank you. Bye-bye.