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Edited Transcript of CCRI.NS earnings conference call or presentation 26-Jun-20 5:30am GMT

Q4 2020 Container Corporation of India Ltd Earnings Call

New Delhi Jul 7, 2020 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Container Corporation of India Ltd earnings conference call or presentation Friday, June 26, 2020 at 5:30:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Manoj Kumar Dubey

Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of Finance, CFO & Director

* Sanjay Swarup

Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director

* Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama

Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD

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Conference Call Participants

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* Abhilasha Satale

Dalal & Broacha Stock Broking Pvt Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Abhishek Ghosh

DSP Investment Managers Pvt. Ltd. - Assistant VP of Small & Mid Caps and Transportation

* Achal Lohade

JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP

* Aditya Mongia

Kotak Securities (Institutional Equities) - VP

* Akshay Bhor

* Ankit Panchmatia

Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Ankita Bora Shah

Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research

* Ankur Periwal

Axis Capital Limited, Research Division - VP of Media and Logistics

* Atul Tiwari

Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst

* Bhavin Gandhi

Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Bhoomika Nair

IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Security Analyst

* Deepak Krishnan

Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Deepika Mundra

JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst

* Lavina Quadros

Jefferies LLC, Research Division - Equity Analyst

* Prateek Kumar

Antique Stockbroking Ltd., Research Division - VP

* Priyankar Biswas

Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division - VP

* Rakesh Vyas

HDFC Asset Management Company Limited - Dedicated Fund Manager for Overseas Investments

* Shrinidhi Karlekar

HSBC, Research Division - Analyst

* Susmit Patodia

* Vikram Suryavanshi

PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Analyst

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Presentation

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Operator [1]

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(technical difficulty)

because of the discount given by railways, 25% of the empty movement, our empty running cost, again, got reduced compared to last year, in '19/'20 compared to '18/'19, and the empty running cost has come down by almost 11%.

We lost market share last year because we have not participated in, one, short-lead traffic where the margins are either very low or negative; and two, on a long-lead traffic where people are going for a lot of deep discounts and price cuts, we avoided. We maintained our margins. So instead of picking up volumes, we looked at our -- maintaining our margins. So we lost around 6%. We are very hopeful of picking up these volume over the coming years because now we are trying -- we are giving the complete end-to-end logistics solution, which we were providing earlier also, but we are working more on that now, providing the end logistics connectivity to the more and more customers, but we are calling it FMLM, first-mile last-mile logistics.

So this year, our focus, our emphasis is more on this. We are going for more and more digitization. Let me share with you some important developments on the digitization side. We are complete paperless office for the last complete financial year. So we were completely to e-office. That helped us working toward this lockdown period. We never closed even for a single day during the lockdown. All our terminals are working, all our back-end offices are working, regional office, customers' office, we continuously worked. And then work-from-home, we immediately switched over as soon as the lockdown was announced even without any gap because we were all equipped with all the necessary things for working-from-home, even though we are not in the software technology sector but because of e-office. All our billing and bill payments are completely automatized. And all our ERP systems, now they are all having back-end connectivity. We call it enterprise bus, so -- which is a single ERP for the entire company.

So with all these developments, the requirement of employees, even if we are adding new businesses, is not there. So the existing employees, we are able to add on new business. We -- I've referred FMLM, the first-mile, last-mile now already started at 15 terminals in this financial year. There is a focus area. All of you know that we started coastal shipping, and it went on without any break for 1 year, but with the coronavirus, with the COVID coming up and the lockdown going on, we stopped temporarily these services. And we will -- we are planning to resume them back at the end of this calendar year, somewhere in November, December. It's still not decided. We will be adding on Bangladesh. But also that plan was held up because of COVID.

Distribution logistics, even though we started, we could not make progress, but we are going ahead with that. So that also will be a focus area in this financial year. Now we are already started and operating now coal agency work for the state electricity board, Karnataka State Electricity Board, as we went on and that's started. So these are the new areas we are working on. And by providing FMLM, we are able to increase our service quality. So our emphasis is always on improvement of service quality, giving better service. With that, we want to increase our market share, keeping our margins as far as possible in the same levels. So we are not participating in low-margin businesses.

And this year, because of COVID, our expectations are low. So we are expecting, I guess, 3.74 million TEUs. This year, we are looking at 3 million TEUs, even though it is -- as of now, looks to be tough target, but we are working on it to achieve at least 3 million TEUs of handling this year.

The COVID impact, we hope that we will come to some -- it will reduce, and some normalcy will start. And things will start moving up in the third quarter, and fourth quarter should be a good quarter. That is our expectation as of now. But I don't -- because -- this I can't say very surely because things are still the -- with coronavirus and its impact peaking and these things, still, we are waiting for the forecast because nobody is able to tell exactly how will be the situation going ahead. Thank you.

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Questions and Answers

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Operator [1]

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(Operator Instructions) The first question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citigroup.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [2]

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Yes. So what was the EXIM and domestic origination volume in the fourth quarter? And what was the lead...

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Operator [3]

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Sorry to interrupt. Atul sir, if you could (inaudible).

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [4]

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Yes. Definitely. Hold on. Am I audible now?

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Unidentified Company Representative, [5]

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Yes, you are.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [6]

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So sir, I just wanted the originating volumes in EXIM and domestic in the fourth quarter?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [7]

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Yes. Mr. Sanjay will tell you.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [8]

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And the full year lead distances also, sir, EXIM and domestic.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [9]

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Okay. Originating in the EXIM was -- in fourth quarter, it is 451,007 TEUs, and domestic was 80,267 TEUs. Total 531,274 TEUs. And in fourth quarter, lead of EXIM was 738 kilometers and domestic, 1,367 kilometers.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [10]

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And sir, full year lead distances, is it included?

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [11]

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Full year EXIM is 735 kilometers, domestic, 1,356 kilometers.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [12]

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Okay. And sir, my last question was on the land that you have on some of the terminal paths. So we saw the filing on exchange sometimes ago that some of those terminals have been given back to the railway without too much impact on your business. But what about the remaining terminals, which you have decided to keep, how much amount you will have to pay to railways to buy off that land? And what will be the corresponding revenue on those terminals or -- and the network?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [13]

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Ankit (sic) [Atul], I can tell you the remaining 29 terminals which we are keeping. We will be paying, as per our calculation as on date around to INR 450 crores as LLF.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [14]

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INR 2,450 crores?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [15]

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INR 450 crores. You are asking about buying the land or paying the LLF?

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [16]

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Yes. So sir, I think there was a discussion to buy this land before the governmental strategic divestment.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [17]

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That is all media speculations, no. You have read media reports that -- don't go by media reports. As of now, LLF policy has been changed within the railways. So -- but there are representations from us. That is why we haven't given still any notification to exchange and to you. We are writing to railways because of COVID situation. But let me tell you if leasing continues as it is without any relief on that, our calculations are that for the remaining 29 terminals, we'll be paying around INR 450 crores land license fee. And INR 140 crores we paid in the last year.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [18]

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Sir, how much was the amount in last year? Sorry, I missed that.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [19]

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INR 140 crores.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [20]

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INR 140 crores.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [21]

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Yes.

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Atul Tiwari, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - VP & Analyst [22]

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Okay. So it is a substantial increase in LLF in FY '21.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [23]

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Yes. But we are not discussing (inaudible).

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Operator [24]

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The next question is from the line of Lavina Quadros from Jefferies.

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Lavina Quadros, Jefferies LLC, Research Division - Equity Analyst [25]

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Yes, firstly, very -- congratulations on very good margins. I just wanted to understand 2 things. Are there any one-off items in your staff expenses or your other expenses because of which it's down a fair bit year-on-year? That's one. And two, as far as your balance sheet is concerned, what is the status on advances to railways against freight, the arrangement you had last year? Is there any chance of it continuing this year or is -- that is not the case?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [26]

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If you see, regarding the staff expenses, last year, we gave an option for them to encash the leaves. And there was some -- now their commission increase -- their commission has come, (inaudible) commission. So these 2, actually, last year, there was more. So it is a one-off in the last year. That is why this quarter, there's no one-off regular expenses, it has come down.

And regarding the advances to railways, this year, we are not paying any advance. Last year, we paid the advance. This year, we are not paying any advance. So there is no advance account payment to railways.

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Operator [27]

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The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [28]

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Yes. Apparently, if I'm repeating the same question, is there any reversal or any adjustment in the operating expenses or real estate cost in the fourth quarter? And if yes, how much?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [29]

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There is no reversal, but we have written back some provisions. So there was little impact on that. Otherwise, there is no right -- reversal for any of these expenses.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [30]

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That we will be indulging. From adjusting the other operating expenses...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [31]

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Other operating expenses, we have returned back something.

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [32]

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Would you be able to quantify, sir, how much would that be?

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [33]

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I think around INR 30 crores (inaudible)

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [34]

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INR 30 crores.

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [35]

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INR 30 crores. Okay. Understood. And my second question is with respect to the market share. Would it be possible for you to kind of give us some idea as to what is the market size in the northeast corridor? And of that, how much is the rail share and our market share in the pocket?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [36]

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Northeast corridor?

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [37]

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Northwest. Northwest, sir. This is stated by the Gujarat and Maharashtra ports.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [38]

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The northwest corridor is normally around 40% of the total volumes move on the northwest corridor. And in this, around rail share is 40%, and our share on that 40% is around 70%.

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [39]

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Our share is 70%. And what would be the mix for us in terms of this northwest in our total volumes?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [40]

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Pardon?

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [41]

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In our total volumes also, it will be 40% of our total EXIM volumes, northwest?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [42]

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60%.

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Achal Lohade, JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, Research Division - VP [43]

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60% for us. Got it. That's helpful, sir.

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Operator [44]

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The next question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Antique Stockbroking.

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Prateek Kumar, Antique Stockbroking Ltd., Research Division - VP [45]

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So my first question is, so how the CapEx move like in current year or like in current situation, like INR 1,000 crore CapEx, which we generally target. Last year, we did, I think, INR 750 crores. So how should we build CapEx...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [46]

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Not INR 750 crores, INR 1,050 crores in '19/'20 midway. '18/'19 was less, '19/'20 was INR 1,050 crores.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [47]

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'18/'19 was INR 750 crores.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [48]

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Yes. That is INR 750 crores for '18/'19, INR 768 crores. '19/'20, we did INR 1,050 crores. But this year, CapEx will be low because we are already 2 quarters. The demand is not there. In fact, assets are idling now. So our CapEx expenditure will be less this year. We are looking at INR 400 crores of CapEx expenditure this year.

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Prateek Kumar, Antique Stockbroking Ltd., Research Division - VP [49]

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Okay. So this will be towards new terminalization or general maintenance?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [50]

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There are -- CapEx is always on 3 items. One is the IT and digitization, automatization expenditures. There will be new terminal, and there will be, in effect, the rolling stock and the handling equipment procurement. So all 3 will be there this year also.

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Prateek Kumar, Antique Stockbroking Ltd., Research Division - VP [51]

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Okay. And just one question on -- so there was this -- this is more operations question. There was recently -- at Mundra Port, there was some increase in rail handling expenses by the company on all rail operators. So is this something which we have faced in Q1 or last quarter? And how much?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [52]

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Prateek, your information is not correct. There is no rail operational increase on CONCOR. The other companies, I don't want to comment, but on CONCOR, there is absolutely no increase.

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Operator [53]

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The next question is from the line of Ankita Shah from Elara Capital.

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [54]

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Sir, I want to dwell further on the margin front. Sir, you explained the Q-o-Q decline. But sir -- sorry -- Y-o-Y decline. But even on a sequential basis, there is a significant drop in employee cost and rail freight expenses. So a reason for high margins, why these costs are lower?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [55]

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In all quarters, you are talking about from Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, this is sequential.

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [56]

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Yes. No, sir, Q3 versus Q4.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [57]

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Q3 versus Q4. Yes. So...

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [58]

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Q3 versus Q4, if you talk about the railways margin, this (inaudible) decline in our (inaudible) TEUs, which were 11% decline and in physical terms, they are around 17,000 TEUs, yes. So because of this, railways (inaudible) come down, it is purely because of less originating volume in Q4 vis-à-vis Q3.

Regarding the staff cost expenses, as we have mentioned in the last question also, there was adjustment in Q4. Actually, what we do, we do provisions in Q1, Q2, Q3, and we take a final call in Q4. So there was substantial attrition in this financial year, which had an impact on provisioning for PRP, that is performance-related payments, gratuity and all those things. So those adjustments have come in a huge number in Q4. But if you look at year-to-year, this is not substantial and only INR 130 crores.

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [59]

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Right. Okay. Okay. And sir, you've taken an impairment in Fresh and Healthy subsidiary. So any more impairment spending? And what is the total order of investment in this entity? And is there a possibility of more impairments going forward?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [60]

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See, the impairment comes after reviewing of the working of the subsidiary at the end of the financial year. So this subsidiary, we get some business reengineering. And after this reengineering, because of, again, the coronavirus, so -- and other factors, we could not get the performance as we expected. So the impairment has come at the end of the financial year. Going forward, we can't make any guesswork on this. So as far as our -- the plan is concerned, we will be doing -- getting the money back from the subsidiary.

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [61]

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So what is our total investment here?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [62]

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Total investment?

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [63]

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INR 215 crores.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [64]

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Yes, INR 215 crores.

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [65]

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INR 215 crores. Okay. And sir, just one last. Sir, you mentioned on your pressure on realization. And it has been...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [66]

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Did I mention?

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [67]

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No, sir. No, I am asking the reason for pressure on realization.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [68]

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The pressure on realization, I was -- actually I said the market share has been dropped by 6% because we are not participating in short-lead traffic where there are no margins or negative margins. And in some long-lead traffic where people are trying to be deep discounted at volumes. So we are not picking up. We are not going on number game in the volumes Rather than we are maintaining our operating margin at our healthy level of 32%, 34% and working on service-level improvements to get back these volumes back to us at our pricing. You got my point?

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [69]

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(inaudible)

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [70]

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Pardon?

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Ankita Bora Shah, Elara Capital, Inc. - Associate VP of Institutional Research [71]

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Any price hike that we have taken? Or we are planning to take any price hikes?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [72]

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As of now, there is no price hike. So we actually announced a price hike, but then we deferred it till 1st of October now.

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Operator [73]

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The next question is from the line of (inaudible) from Macquarie.

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Unidentified Analyst, [74]

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Sir, I have 2 questions. First thing, sir, you mentioned that you expect normalcy on volumes to return sometime by 3Q or 4Q. So my question is if there is a surge in volumes in 3Q or 4Q because of some latent demand coming back after the economic activities resume fully, do we have the additional capacity to cater to that surge in volumes at that point of time? That is the first question.

And the second question, in FY '20, you paid about INR 4,500 crores to railways as the advance haulage charge. But if I look at the P&L statement, the rail freight expense is only INR 3,500 crores. So is it fair to say that INR 1,000 crores is still outstanding with railways which you would be able to utilize in FY '21?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [75]

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I'll answer your second question first. See, last year, we paid only INR 3,000 crores advance to railways.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [76]

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We plan to pay that.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [77]

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So we have not paid the other INR 1,500 crores, which we should have paid a second installment. We did not pay it. So INR 3,000 crores advance has already been adjusted, okay?

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Unidentified Analyst, [78]

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Yes. Yes.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [79]

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And your first question, we got sufficient -- we are where we had to handle all these surges. But there was some surge during the lockdown because entire road traffic got held up. So 1 or 2 terminals, we took the patch, and we accommodated. We never refused a single container.

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Unidentified Analyst, [80]

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Okay, sir. So just one follow-up question. As you mentioned, there was a surge in railway volumes during the lockdown period because of disruption to road freight lockdown. Do you think that this will have a positive impact for us after DFC gets commissioned because they would have sort of forced the customers to look at railways and some of them might have started depending on railways?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [81]

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Yes. There is no doubt we will get benefited. The DFC commissioning also is getting affected because of COVID.

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Unidentified Analyst, [82]

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No.

No. No. What I'm asking is do you think that now there will be an accelerated move towards railways after DFC gets commissioned because customers would have already been forced to move to railways because of COVID when there was road lockdown situation.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [83]

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That's what I'm telling. With DFC coming, definitely, there is a positive impact. And people are looking at railway as a good option because of many uncertainties happening on the road side. So we think it to be watched. We -- now we can't make any guess work.

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Operator [84]

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The next question is from the line of Abhishek Ghosh from DSP Mutual Funds.

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Abhishek Ghosh, DSP Investment Managers Pvt. Ltd. - Assistant VP of Small & Mid Caps and Transportation [85]

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Yes. Sir, the indicative increase in railway land license fees that you spoke about, will that be effective from 1Q FY '21 onwards if we start accounting it in the P&L?

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [86]

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It's from 1st April 2020 as of now. But as previously mentioned, we have already represented to ministry of railway that the old system should continue as we still remain to be a PSU. And also for the COVID-19, we have requested for the moratorium for 3 to 6 months, and still we yet to take a final call on that.

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Abhishek Ghosh, DSP Investment Managers Pvt. Ltd. - Assistant VP of Small & Mid Caps and Transportation [87]

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Okay. Fair enough. Sir, you also mentioned about this 3 million TEUs kind of a volume for expected volume for '21, which implies something like a 20% decline. Is it also to do with the fact that you have given away those 15 terminals? Or is it only because of the entire crisis that is going around? Or is it also attributable to...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [88]

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If you followed our first release, what we have given in the exchange information, we clearly mentioned where the business, where we are moving in out of these 15 terminals. So all those terminals, we are not -- we have not closed any of the terminal, losing the terminals. We moved it to our wide terminals. The 20% drop is only because of COVID.

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Abhishek Ghosh, DSP Investment Managers Pvt. Ltd. - Assistant VP of Small & Mid Caps and Transportation [89]

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Okay. Sir, just one last question. The price hike, which you have deferred up to 1st October, what is the quantum of that?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [90]

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Yes. It depends on -- yes, I can't quantify this price hike, then you have to -- once we give that clarification, you have to sit down and quantify each and everything there. It will be something like 3%, overall 3% to 4% (inaudible).

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Operator [91]

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The next question is from the line of Akshay Bhor from Premji Invest.

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Akshay Bhor, [92]

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Sir, congratulations for good set of numbers and great operating performance. Sir, first question, is that INR 450 crores of land licensing fee based on certain formula? Anything you can give a sense in terms of how that escalation could happen in the subsequent years?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [93]

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No. Let us not (inaudible) this year. If we say that INR 450 crores, then I think next -- at the end of this year, when you call -- we'll have this conference call, I'll explain you how that will be going down. But as of now, as we -- now 2 times, I think we already answered this question. We made a presentation to railway, and we are waiting for the outcome of that. Let it come first. So let this be first kick in and then we'll tell you how it will go up. So without that, even still now, it will be too much of unnecessary information, I think.

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Akshay Bhor, [94]

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Understood, sir. Okay. And just a quick one on over the last 2, 3 months, given that rail would have gained some share, any indications of (inaudible) how much you could have gained over roads? And how is...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [95]

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Let me tell you one. I will not give you numbers, which is numbers for Q1. That's not correct. But as I mentioned in my TV guide as well as on the conference call, the actual numbers are low. But yes, the rail share has increased because the road has got affected very badly. The road movement was banned by the government. But railways, they allowed to move the railways. So rail share increased, yes. So our share also increased. But once we look at absolute numbers, definitely it will be less. As such, there is no business. Now I think all of you who are all on the conference, you must be saving lots of money because you are not able to spend the money now.

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Operator [96]

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The next question is from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.

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Ankur Periwal, Axis Capital Limited, Research Division - VP of Media and Logistics [97]

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Yes. Congrats for the good set of numbers. Sir, one question regarding the opening remarks, you did mention that we had let go the small-lead distances as well as the long-lead ones, wherein they hold deep discounts and focused on maintaining our margins. So -- and this is despite there being degrowth on the volume front overall originating as well as earnings. Would it be fair to say that FY '21, when we are still expecting volumes to decline because of the macro, these margins will more or less be stable at these numbers, given the initiatives taken by us?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [98]

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Yes. That's what -- operating margins, we will be trying to maintain at the same level of 32%, 34%.

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Ankur Periwal, Axis Capital Limited, Research Division - VP of Media and Logistics [99]

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Okay. That's very good, sir. And sir, just second thing, 2 data points which you can help with. One is the empty earning loss, you did mention 11% decline from a full year perspective. If you can give a breakup between EXIM and domestic? And second data on the port point share that you typically share across JNPT, Mundra and Pipavav.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [100]

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Empty running cost of total INR 203 crores, EXIM cost is IND 107 crore, and domestic is IND 96 crore.

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Ankur Periwal, Axis Capital Limited, Research Division - VP of Media and Logistics [101]

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Sure. And just on the port-point share?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [102]

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Share of total of our volumes, JNPT contributed 33%; Mundra, 31%; Pipavav, 14%; Vizag, 7%; Chennai, 6%; and rest is other pools.

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Operator [103]

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The next question is from the line of Bhavin Ghandi from BNP Securities.

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Bhavin Gandhi, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [104]

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Congratulations on a great set of numbers. Sir, if you can highlight the data in million terms, both for EXIM and domestic. That's the first question.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [105]

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In million terms, this year, we did 40.5 million, in which EXIM is around 32.7, and domestic is 7.8.

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Bhavin Gandhi, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [106]

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Great, sir. And sir, the second question is relating to your comment on the deep discounts in the long-lead payment. Sir, this phenomenon has started occurring during the COVID environment or has been prevailing for some time now, if you can comment on it?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [107]

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It is -- regarding the (inaudible), there are some markets (inaudible), particularly Ludhiana market in Punjab. So there are 4, 5 (inaudible) have come up. So people started offering deep discount. So we did not go into the deep discounting, but we could get back some good share of the market back to us because of our service levels, that is Dhandari Kalan terminal DDL. And so our volumes, we are maintaining our volumes more or less. There was some net debt some 2 years back, but again, we are picking up our volumes there because now we are providing a complete solution there. We are picking up the cargo right from the customer premises and providing all the services to them. So some customers are very happy with those services. So that's what I mentioned, that this year, our emphasis is to provide more and more end logistics and bringing in a complete, holistic solution to customers. So we are working on a vertical to be there in our company, which is focusing especially on these things this year.

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Bhavin Gandhi, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [108]

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Okay. So just one last thing. Any update that you can give on DFC time line that you would have heard?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [109]

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DFC got delayed. So originally, DFC, we thought, 1st of July, we will start running trains. We are running on some small patch, but that doesn't help. So unless Mundra and Pipavav ports get connected, real help will not come. So now that looks to be maybe, I don't know, something at the end of this calendar year or end of the financial year. And it all depends on how the coronavirus situation will unfold in the next 1 month.

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Operator [110]

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The next question is from the line of Priyankar Biswas from Nomura Securities.

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Priyankar Biswas, Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division - VP [111]

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This is Priyankar Biswas from Nomura Securities. So my first question is, so there is a possibility of the land license fees going up. So like post the DFC when maybe you would have, let's say, momentum in volumes, is it possible that you would be able to largely pass on the increase in costs? I mean what's your thought on this?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [112]

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See, that pricing is independent of these things. Our pricing is basically based on the market conditions, where or what the cargo can bear and where we can get the business. So we work on those pricing models on those things. We don't work on pricing based on input costs. So let us be very clear on that. So our input cost has no bearing on our pricing models. But at the same time, when our pricing models that we work on, we work to maintain the operating margins, as I answered in the earlier question. So we try to maintain the operating margins at the 30%, 32%, 34%. That is what where we are maintaining for the last 4, 5 years. In fact, maybe last 2, 3 years, we brought the operating margins from 25% to 32%, 33% levels. So we are trying to maintain at those levels. Now once DFC comes, the volume picks up automatically, our -- the land licensing fee costs will get averaged on more and more number of containers. So the impact will come down. So that will help us in trying to get more business and increase our top line as well as bottom line.

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Priyankar Biswas, Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division - VP [113]

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Sir, one more question here. So on this land license fee that you told like almost INR 450-odd crores, so is it something -- is it now calculated based on circle rates of that land on which these terminals are like certain formulas like 6% of the circle rates? Is it something that...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [114]

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Well, I think, I answered this question. Yes, there is no point in repeating these questions. I answered earlier because of railway, we represented something railway has to decide on. Let it be decided, then I will explain you the formula how it will be calculated and how it will be going forward in my next conference call at the end of this financial year, okay?

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Priyankar Biswas, Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division - VP [115]

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Okay. Sir, just last question from my side, absolutely. So like during the lockdown, in the absolute volumes, we are seeing, like based on the railway data that is published by the Ministry of Railways, that the decline in rail volumes is something like 10, 12-odd percent for containers. So if this is the trend, don't you think that the volume decline that you are guiding, like 20%, is actually, I mean, quite a big number, I mean, based on what the trend we are seeing?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [116]

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In comparison, you feel that we are projecting more decline or less decline? What is that -- I'm not able to understand.

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Priyankar Biswas, Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division - VP [117]

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See, I say, is the decline that you are projecting, like 20%, is it not a very high number? Because during the lockdown period, the rail container volumes declined just 12%. I mean...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [118]

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Understand this, understand this, the absolute numbers are less, but during lockdown, the road is totally closed. So there is a lot of movement that happened on rail, which otherwise would not have come to rail, okay? Once the economy opens up, now railroad is opened up now, but there are some difficulties for road drivers in lockdown. But everything comes normal, then the road will take its share. This increase of 12% and maintaining at that level may not be possible. That's what we are doing. Our estimate is at 3 million TEUs.

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Operator [119]

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The next question is from the line of Aditya Mongia from Kotak Securities.

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Aditya Mongia, Kotak Securities (Institutional Equities) - VP [120]

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Yes. I had 2 questions from my side. The first question was more on a full year basis. The EBITDA of the company has grown about 12% in a declining market. So I just wanted to kind of understand it better. Is it that you're seeing a bigger share of EBITDA from businesses beyond rail? Has that seen an uptick? Or should we kind of think through this as you being able to gain better traction in less competitive rail terminals of yours?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [121]

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You see, you are very right in looking at those numbers. If you look at the other question, that also happened before there. 2 things are very sacrosanct for this company. One that we do not enter into any price war. So we maintain our price, which had a little impact on the volumes. Having said that, you look at expenses, we have a very good monitoring of our major variable that is staff cost and admin cost. And there we have (inaudible). And the other thing that happened in last FY it is going to happen in future also. That is regarding optimizing the raise in staff numbers. There were already (inaudible) positions. We are not taking any new workers. And for any new business that we are visualizing, we are going to use 20%, 30% of the manpower, which is we visualize as extra for the existing business. And by doing multi-skilling, we are using them for more top line and bottom line. So that will surely come out as a positive thing in the EBITDA, not only for the last FY, but for the future FY also.

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Aditya Mongia, Kotak Securities (Institutional Equities) - VP [122]

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Sure. That explains. The second question that I had was just a clarification. So one other question. You had implied that there's a 40% share of rail in Northwest Corridor container volume. Would this be a similar or a higher number if I were to be focusing on long-lead distance volumes?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [123]

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Well, you say that it is a higher number.

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Aditya Mongia, Kotak Securities (Institutional Equities) - VP [124]

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Yes. I'm just trying to see, if I were to be thinking through the long-lead distance in northwest container volume, will the share of rail be different than the 40% number that was mentioned earlier?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [125]

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No. This 40% northwest, when we say it is -- see, all these statistics, these percentages are based on some base. Now what base we take? Okay. The base is all the containers, which are coming into the inter-land from port towards northwest corridor. So northwest corridor starts from Gujarat right up to Punjab, okay? In that, 40% will come on rail. Now if you take only Punjab containers, the number will increase, rail share will decrease.

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Aditya Mongia, Kotak Securities (Institutional Equities) - VP [126]

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So let's say for NCR, would this number be a number that you can comment on?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [127]

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That's your analysis, I'm not going to do (inaudible). I have already told you what my figure is. You can do any number of analysis, isn't it?

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Aditya Mongia, Kotak Securities (Institutional Equities) - VP [128]

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Got that, sir. Sir, just one more thing from my side. So we've come off a 5-year kind of period of a good amount of CapEx. As you kind of see through the next, let's say, 3 to 5 years, do you see this number as a run rate coming down meaningfully?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [129]

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No. For this year, it has come down. Otherwise, we have given projections for 5 years from 2017 to '22, '23. We said we will spend INR 6,000 crores from our side, anywhere between INR 6,000 crores to INR 8,000 crores, okay? So last year, we spent better. A year before, 2017, '18, we spent around IND 770 crores. Last year, we spent IND 1,050 crores. And going forward would have increased. But because of now this coronavirus, COVID situation, things totaling down, topsy-turvy everywhere. So we now hold -- held back on CapEx spending. And this year, we are only projecting INR 400 crores. Now if you ask me what will be next year and after that, wait for another 2, 3 months, how this COVID situation unfolds because nobody is able to understand what will happen tomorrow. America is telling that, again, the second wave started and really getting badly affected, that is today's morning news. So we have to see, watch and -- wait and watch.

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Operator [130]

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The next question is from the line of Vikram Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital.

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Vikram Suryavanshi, PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Analyst [131]

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What was the ail freight margin for this quarter and full year?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [132]

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Yes. So ail freight margin for this quarter is 31.34% compared to last year, Q4, 27.39%.

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Vikram Suryavanshi, PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Analyst [133]

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And for full year, sir?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [134]

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No. Full year, it is 28.94% for FY compared to 27.76% of last year.

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Vikram Suryavanshi, PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Analyst [135]

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Okay. And sir, this coastal shipping, since we are not operating ships, will there be concession in terms of -- or moratorium in the kind of payment we'll be paying because these ships are on lead basis?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [136]

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No, we are not paying. There is -- a force majeure clause is there. So when it is signed that applies to everyone, so it applies to us also. So we are not making any payments towards any leads in this COVID time.

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Vikram Suryavanshi, PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Analyst [137]

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Okay. And can you explain, just last question, in terms of what is your exactly role in this coal business, what you've talked about for power company, just to get more clarity on the kind of services we can provide to the different players?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [138]

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It is coal management. Coal management means arranging the railway rates, getting the coal rail loaded and movement of the rail and handing in the ore at the land for the consumption. For that, we'll get the fees of our work. So this is an agency work.

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Operator [139]

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(Operator Instructions) The next question is from the line of Deepika Mundra from JPMorgan.

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Deepika Mundra, JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst [140]

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Sir, firstly, I just wanted to understand on your INR 300-odd crores of staff costs and about INR 1,000 crores in other expenses, how much would you say is fixed versus variable?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [141]

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Fixed versus variable -- versus variable expenses. You are looking at fixed and variable part of this?

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Deepika Mundra, JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst [142]

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Correct. Yes.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [143]

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INR 300 crores staff expenses, fixed cost. It is not variable. Why will we be paying them?

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Deepika Mundra, JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst [144]

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Okay. And on the others?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [145]

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Yes, my DF is giving you the answer. Listen.

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Manoj Kumar Dubey, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of Finance, CFO & Director [146]

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So staff cost and admin cost together makes INR 600 crores for it, right? And other component is land license fees. So these are the 3 major components of my expenses, apart from the rail freight expenses and (inaudible) expenses, which are variable, linked to my business. So this fixed cost, admin costs and land license fee, they are -- land license fee from this year, we fit to the new regime. Had it been the earlier regime, land license fee was also variable cost, as you know, it was linked to TEU, the kind of TEU we used to handle, we used to pay the land license fee according to that. So as JP mentioned, that leads only with staff cost and admin cost, which are by and large fixed.

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Deepika Mundra, JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst [147]

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Got it. Understood. And sir, just second question on the DFC. You mentioned it will be most likely end of the year. But any update on the feeder line from Mundra to DFC? Or do you think that is on track?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [148]

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Mundra feeder lines from Palanpur to Mundra and Palanpur to Pipavav are already. They are running. So there is no work to be done on that. But up to Palanpur, DFC has to get connected.

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Operator [149]

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The next question is from the line of Abhilasha Satale from Dalal & Broacha.

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Abhilasha Satale, Dalal & Broacha Stock Broking Pvt Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [150]

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Yes. My question is again related to DFC. Sir, can you put it in exact terms how much has been a delay in DFC, how much time has got postponed to complete the entire DFC? And is there any cost increase because of the delay? And how will it be financed?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [151]

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I am doing conference for Container Corporation not for Dedicated Freight Corridor. How can I answer your questions about Dedicated Freight Corridor. I can tell you what is the information I got when I'm expecting DFC to become operational because I will be a user of DFC. Your questions are concerned with DFC, so I request you call up DFC organization and ask your questions.

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Abhilasha Satale, Dalal & Broacha Stock Broking Pvt Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [152]

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Okay. Okay. Sir, like as per your assessment, just by when this Pipavav-Palanpur, the DFC will get completed?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [153]

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I don't know. End of this calendar year or end of the financial year, I can't tell you exact date. That's my guess. So it's 3 months margin I'm giving you either December or March.

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Abhilasha Satale, Dalal & Broacha Stock Broking Pvt Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [154]

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And then after for the entire DFC until June...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [155]

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Let's first start running up to Palanpur. Then again, DFC that you'd ask (inaudible). There is Anurag Sachan. He's the MD, my colleague in DFC, call him and ask him. I can't answer this. I'm sorry about that.

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Operator [156]

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The next question is from the line of Susmit Patodia from Motilal Oswal Asset Management.

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Susmit Patodia, [157]

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Just wanted to check any update on SEIS incentive because you've taken a write-off this year, almost the whole amount.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [158]

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So no, not almost whole amount. INR 182.5 crores, we have already got the case, and we are in the midst of monetizing it. So it leaves us with INR 860.8 crores of amount with DGFT prime (inaudible) not given us on some implementation issue. Of that issue, we already have a clarification from Ministry of (inaudible) and also the views of additional (inaudible) of Government of India. Based on that, we have made a presentation to Ministry of Commerce. We are waiting for their reply. After that, we'll take up on whether we need to go through secretary or through the legal recourse.

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Susmit Patodia, [159]

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So it's not a complete...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [160]

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It is not written off. It is not written off. We've always provided for it.

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Susmit Patodia, [161]

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Yes.

But you provided for the whole thing, right?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [162]

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No. No. INR 861 crores, it is very clear on the -- to the explanation of accounts.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [163]

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INR 182 crores, we have called in the script, we have already received.

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Operator [164]

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The next question is from the line of Rakesh Vyas from HDFC Mutual Fund.

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Rakesh Vyas, HDFC Asset Management Company Limited - Dedicated Fund Manager for Overseas Investments [165]

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Yes. I have 2 questions. First, if you could just highlight what (inaudible) stacking volumes sales that we did target for 4Q and FY '20.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [166]

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Yes, Rakesh. Sanjay will tell you.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [167]

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4Q, we have done 494 double-stack trains. And for FY '20, we have done 2,528 trains.

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Rakesh Vyas, HDFC Asset Management Company Limited - Dedicated Fund Manager for Overseas Investments [168]

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Great, sir. So second question, sir, is related to the outlook that you have guided for, which is 20% decline. So I'm just trying to understand is the environment when rail is gaining market share even when road is coming that they are seeing some challenges. So isn't the 20% a very steep number? That's fine number. And point number two is, is this 20% the original (inaudible) also likely to be in similar trends or they could have a higher decline than what we are anticipating?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [169]

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Now I will answer, Rakesh, one question. What volume -- what is the impact on export/import you are expecting this financial year.

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Rakesh Vyas, HDFC Asset Management Company Limited - Dedicated Fund Manager for Overseas Investments [170]

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Based on what we are hearing so far, first half is severely challenged. Second half, we will see normalcy. So I think we are anywhere around 15% kind of decline on a blended basis. This is generally what we are getting from various sources. We have no clue, to be very frank. I will agree with you, sir. But I'm just trying to understand, are we being very, very conservative in our numbers during -- how efficiently we have been operating in this challenging environment as well?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [171]

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No. No. Rakesh, that's the whole thing. See, today, if I look at import/export, it looks as if the volumes will drop by around 30%.

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Rakesh Vyas, HDFC Asset Management Company Limited - Dedicated Fund Manager for Overseas Investments [172]

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That is the current trend, sir. Yes, you are right. But...

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [173]

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If export/import drops, and 30% export/import drops on overall. So 100 will become 70. Then I have to maintain 20% drop. That means I have to pick up almost 20% extra traffic from road. So whereas it is a really steep thing. Today, it is happening because the road is having a challenge. But when things get normalized, the road will again try to get back their share. I understand road assets are idling, and they will go for marginal costing methods because that is where the real issue comes up. It's now survival then.

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Rakesh Vyas, HDFC Asset Management Company Limited - Dedicated Fund Manager for Overseas Investments [174]

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And just if you can clarify this 20% decline in handling, could originating volume numbers be different than this decline?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [175]

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Handling, handling also the same almost similar numbers. We will be dropping maybe around 15%, 20%.

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Operator [176]

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The next question is from the line of Shrinidhi Karlekar from HSBC.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [177]

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We will take 2 more questions.

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Shrinidhi Karlekar, HSBC, Research Division - Analyst [178]

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Congratulations on a decent set of numbers. Sir, I just want some detail with numbers. I want rail position numbers at the major ports in India and CONCOR's market share at the major -- key ports in India.

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Sanjay Swarup, Container Corporation of India Limited - Director of International Marketing & Operations and Whole Time Director [179]

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Yes. JNPT rail position was 17.1%. Also, their CONCOR share is 66%. At Mundra, it's 25.8%; CONCOR share, 44%. Pipavav is 67%, and CONCOR share is 49%.

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Shrinidhi Karlekar, HSBC, Research Division - Analyst [180]

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Okay. Great. And sir, I just want some understanding on business. Is it fair to say that typically, import-laden containers will have a significantly higher margin in terms of EBITDA per TEU compared to, say, export-laden containers?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [181]

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I think this question, it's better not to be answered. These are all the business secrets. We can't give you these things.

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Shrinidhi Karlekar, HSBC, Research Division - Analyst [182]

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Okay, sir. And just last one, sir, if I may. Just one clarification, did we say that we had INR 30 crores of kind of provision write-back in employee costs as well as INR 30 crore provision write-back in some of other expenses?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [183]

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Cost, provision write-back and other expenses.

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Shrinidhi Karlekar, HSBC, Research Division - Analyst [184]

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The total IND 60 crores, right? Is that correct, my understanding?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [185]

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INR 30 crores, INR 30 crores. There is no employee expenses write-back in them.

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Shrinidhi Karlekar, HSBC, Research Division - Analyst [186]

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Okay. So is it fair to say that the employee cost trend that we have seen in Q4 is likely to continue next year?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [187]

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Yes, yes, yes. It's very fair understanding.

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Operator [188]

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The next question is from the line of Deepak Krishnan from Goldman Sachs.

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Deepak Krishnan, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Research Analyst [189]

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Just wanted to double check on the empty running costs. So the railway was not going to levy any haulage till April 30. So does that still stand? Or has it been extended due to COVID-related uncertainties?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [190]

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Not extended.

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Deepak Krishnan, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Research Analyst [191]

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Okay. So we would get the benefit only for 1 month in Q1?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [192]

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Already got and passed.

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Operator [193]

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The next question is from the line of Ankit Panchmatia from B&K Securities.

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Ankit Panchmatia, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [194]

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Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, I had a question regarding -- is there any possibility of second round of surrendering of terminals? Are we looking out for another round wherein we would be kind of shifting the business to wide terminals? Any thought process around that?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [195]

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No, there is no thought process. We have no second waves. We got only one wave that is finished.

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Ankit Panchmatia, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [196]

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Great, sir. Great. And sir, any indication around improvement in turnaround times because logically, all the passenger trains we were not running during this lockdown?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [197]

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There is real improvement. Now things are moving very fast. Things are what we planned and are moving very fast.

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Ankit Panchmatia, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [198]

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Right. Right, sir. But sir, this was a precursor to DFC. So we would have kind of realized much efficiencies or experienced maybe much efficiencies, which you would be able to do it post-DFC. So any flavor of improvement in turnaround times, what kind of efficiencies we have derived during this lockdown would be much helpful to understand?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [199]

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See, lockdown period is not the period to count on these things, even this. So this is an abnormal working. There are no much volumes. Things are not moving. Assets are idling. So actually, the sure transit times, what we are talking to railways, railways are also discussing with us. At very high levels, we are discussing all these things. But there are constraints, and without DFC, these constraints is very difficult to take out. So unless DFC comes, there is no point about going some analysis about the things that happened during this lockdown period where there's an abnormal working going on.

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Ankit Panchmatia, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [200]

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Good. Got your point, sir. And then last question, sir, what is the number of employees as on FY '20, if I can get that number?

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [201]

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1,421.

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Operator [202]

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I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair for closing comments.

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Bhoomika Nair, IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Security Analyst [203]

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Yes, sir, thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to host the call. On behalf of IDFC Securities, I would like to thank both the management and the participants for being on the call and answering all our queries, sir. Thank you very much, and wish you all the very best, sir.

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Vennelakanti Kalyana Rama, Container Corporation of India Limited - Chairman & MD [204]

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Okay. Thank you, Bhoomika. Bye then.

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Operator [205]

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Thank you. On behalf of IDFC Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.