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Edited Transcript of DIC.DE earnings conference call or presentation 30-Apr-20 8:00am GMT

Q1 2020 DIC Asset AG Earnings Call

May 21, 2020 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of DIC Asset AG earnings conference call or presentation Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 8:00:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Peer Schlinkmann

DIC Asset AG - Head of IR & Corporate Communications

* Sonja Wärntges

DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO

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Conference Call Participants

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* Andre Remke

Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst

* Georg Kanders

Bankhaus Lampe KG, Research Division - Investment Analyst

* Jochen Schmitt

Metzler Equities, Research Division - Research Analyst

* Manuel Martin

ODDO BHF Corporate & Markets, Research Division - Analyst

* Stefan Scharff

SRC-Scharff Research und Consulting GmbH - MD & Managing Partner

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Presentation

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [1]

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Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, a very warm welcome to DIC's Q1 conference call. Today, I'm here with my colleague, Patrick Weiden, new member of the management board as the Chief Capital Markets Officer since 1st of April, a very warm welcome to him; and our investor relations team, headed by Peer Schlinkmann.

Before we start with the usual presentation of our results and the Q&A session afterwards, let me start with some personal words on the current COVID-19 situation. I think I speak on behalf of all our employees and stakeholders of DIC Asset AG, saying that the COVID-19 crisis has taken us all by surprise and certainly surprised us all in its scope. The associated restrictions in our daily life cannot only be seen but also felt. The last few weeks of the first quarter were also influenced by it and kept -- and keeps us, at DIC, very busy. Our top priority was and is the care of our employees and a guarantee of continued business operations. And as many are currently experiencing this, we are doing it very successfully, half of the time from the desk at home. Last but not least, it is of key importance for us that we maintain an intensive dialogue with our affected tenants and stay also in frequent contact with our stakeholders.

With our business model, our motivated and engaged employees and having done our homework in the last years, we are very confident that we will overcome this crisis situation. Our actions these days are not only described by our company's slogan, dynamic performance, which expresses our qualities of being innovative, quick and reliable, but also by the slogan, together through COVID-19 pandemic. With our regional presence and our highly motivated employees, we are fully present and very eager even in the current exceptional situation.

Ladies and gentlemen, let us now take a look together at the results of the first quarter and the current effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. First of all, let me say this. DIC Asset was very successful in the first quarter of 2020. This was again driven by the excellent performance of our real estate management team, and last but not least, from the organic and inorganic growth of the Institutional Business segment year-over-year.

The highlights in quarter 1 were, our real estate management platform was able to achieve a 6% like-for-like rental growth for the total portfolio, with positive impact on gross rental income, which increases by 6% as well as on the recurring management fees, which more than doubled. Our key performance measure, funds from operations, FFO, has increased by 55% to EUR 26.4 million. As of the balance sheet date, with 45% of our loan-to-value ratio was significantly below 50% and on the level of our new strategic LTV target. Our adjusted net asset value, including the full value of the institutional business, has slightly declined to EUR 21.91 per share due to the higher number of shares from the 10% capital increase beginning of January. The dilution was, to some extent, offset by the strong FFO contributions in the first quarter.

Update to COVID-19. Due to the current importance of the COVID-19 situation, we already have highlighted our management approach and effects on our earnings in 2020 on this slide. It is of utmost importance that we are in an active dialogue with our tenants to secure and create economically reasonable individual solutions for both of us. And as already said in the beginning, our mission statement is, we are getting through this together. The impacts on our forecast are reflected in the update given and published on the 3rd of April, we will give you more background on this topic on the slides following the Q1 figures.

Let us have a look at the strong performance of our property management platform. Our assets under management increased significantly from EUR 5.6 billion to EUR 8.4 billion, reflecting the successful acquisitions in 2019 and beginning of the year 2020. We currently manage in total 186 properties, including 92 assets in the Commercial Portfolio with a market value of EUR 1.9 billion and 94 properties in the Institutional Business with a market value of around EUR 6.5 billion, which includes assets like the Stadthaus, Cologne or the recently announced Infinity Office in Düsseldorf, among other assets we have bought with transfer of ownership in the first quarter of 2020.

On the transaction side, we started into the year as originally planned. Except for 1 disposal in the Commercial Portfolio, the transaction volume was driven by the investment activities in the Institutional Business. In total, we have acquired and sold a volume of EUR 327 million. For our investors, we sold 1 property in Wiesbaden after the complete reletting and the big refurbishment to the fund, GEG Public Infrastructure I, means that we will manage this asset also in the future.

On the sales side, we sold in total 3 properties from the Commercial Portfolio and the Institutional Business, including the disposal and the property in Wiesbaden. Our real estate management teams have further improved the quality of our real estate platform in the first 3 months 2020, including the properties in the Commercial Portfolio as well as the Institutional Business. As planned, we signed new or renewed leases for approximately 37,000 square meters, representing an annualized letting volume of EUR 5 million. This has reduced our lease expiry volume to 2.4% for the rest of the year.

The biggest contract we have signed during the first 3 months was the pre-major extension of the lease agreement with the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg until 2027 for roughly 11,000 square meters. Overall, the annualized rental income for the total portfolio significantly increased by 6% compared to end of March of the prior year. This result is a strong proof of our successful real estate team.

I'm delighted to present you another successful case study, representing our real estate management capabilities. Our active asset management approach ranges from our expertise to develop or refurbish an asset in a fixed time and budget and based on a sound pre-analysis of the local letting market, to the letting of the spaces to new potential clients. The property in Wiesbaden was part of the fund, DIC Office Balance I, since 2010 with a total of 25,000 square meter, fully let to the insurance company, AXA. We proactively did not negotiated a renewal of this lease contract with the goal to fully pre-let the building to another tenant at a higher rental level.

How did we achieve this in detail. We pre-let the building before the refurbishment to the Institute of Federal Real Estate with a lease term of 10 years. Part of the new contract was a substantial refurbishment and the implementation of the tenant's strict security requirements for the building for a total CapEx volume of approximately EUR 30 million. We increased the rental level by more than 80% to EUR 6.1 million per year.

Through the successful repositioning, the market value of the property increased by roughly 90% to EUR 124 million. We handed over the spaces in Q1 2020, which will be used by roughly 850 employees of the Federal Criminal Police Office, BKA, Bundeskriminalamt in Wiesbaden. After selling process, we sold a property in Q1 to the fund, GEG Public Infrastructure I. Through the active management of the property, we have generated development fees, transaction fees, and we will keep generating fees for the asset and property management through the mandate we still got from the investors of the fund, GEG Public Infrastructure I.

On Slide 10, we show you the operating performance of the individual business segments. Here, you can see the development of the key performance indicators of our directly held portfolio, the Commercial Portfolio. We were able to further optimize our portfolio by disposing smaller properties and replacing them with attractive acquisitions. The average rent increased by 8% to EUR 10.39, with a stable EPRA vacancy rate of 8.4%. The WALT rose by 0.4 years to 6.2 years. Like-for-like rental growth reached 0.8%. Indexations accounted for approximately 50% of this like-for-like growth as well as increases of in-place rents.

Now we are coming to Page 12 of our presentation. Compared to the prior year's quarter, our real estate management fees more than doubled, thanks to the organic and inorganic growth of our Institutional Business. Both recurring and transaction-related management fees showed a significant increase. Of the total of EUR 20.4 million, we earned EUR 6.8 million through fees or asset property and developed management, while around EUR 13.6 million came from the transaction on performance fees in the first 3 months.

EUR 8.4 million of the transactional performance fees were achieved through acquisitions, while EUR 5.2 million came from successful disposals. The increase in the fees year-over-year were also driven among others by starting the management of newly acquired properties in 2019, for example, the properties: Stadthaus, Cologne; Eurotheum in

Frankfurt; Pressehaus in Berlin; and Helio in Augsburg. In addition, we generated EUR 2.7 million of equity returns from our minority interest in the managed investment vehicle.

Moving forward to Page 14, the income statement. Our profit for the period strongly increased by 75% to EUR 16.1 million, which is proof for the growth of our real estate platform year-over-year. What have been the main drivers there? All income streams, including gross rental income, profit from disposals in the Commercial Portfolio and real estate management fees grew significantly compared with the previous year. The increase in operating costs resulting from the inorganic growth in the Institutional Business was overcompensated. One of the factors contributing to the increase of the management fee in the first 3 months was the transaction, Bundeskriminalamt, Wiesbaden, after our successful repositioning.

On the financing side, our net interest result improved by 17% due to the optimization of our financial structure in the course of 2019. The strong income statement translates also into a higher FFO in the first quarter. Our FFO rose by around about 55% to EUR 26.4 million, which was mainly driven by the strong increased real estate management fees, a higher net rental income and an improved net interest result. On a per share basis, the FFO increased by 42% to EUR 0.34, despite the rise in the average number of shares triggered by the capital increase implemented beginning January 2020.

How has that FFO developed in the individual segments? Since the inorganic growth that mid of last year, when we acquired GEG, we stated that we want to achieve a 50-50 split to FFO contribution from both of the business segments. Looking at the Q1 figures by segment, we clearly achieved this. Both segments contribute funds from operations of EUR 13.2 million in the first 3 months. In particular, the strong contribution from real estate management fees led to significant FFO growth of more than 100% in the Institutional segment. The FFO in the Commercial Portfolio increased by roughly 15%, mainly due to the higher net rental income and a lower net interest result. Our balance sheet at the end of Q1 shows the impact of 10% capital increase replaced via an accelerated book building in January 2020.

We successfully placed a total of roughly 6.9 million of new shares at an issue price of EUR 16. This was marginally below the stock market price at this time. The equity ratio rose to 38.7%. The other main impact seen in the balance sheet at the end of Q1 is the transaction, Infinity Office. In late February, the Infinity Office project development in Düsseldorf, which we secured in 2018 via a forward deal and monitored until completion over the construction period, was added. After the completion and letting to the Infinity Office, we have structured a club deal for 2 renowned institutional investors in the second quarter 2020 and hence, managed the property in the Institutional Business segment. As of end of March 2020 balance sheet date, we show the property on the current assets as noncurrent assets held for sale and the corresponding liabilities as liabilities related to noncurrent asset held for sale.

Moving forward to Page 18, we show you the development of adjusted NAV calculation as of end of March. The EPRA NAV as of end of March amounts to EUR 1.370 billion, up 20 -- sorry, up 10% compared to the 2019 year-end figure of EUR 1.244 billion due to the capital increase implemented at the beginning of the year. Adjusted NAV includes the value of our Institutional Business segments in amount of around EUR 557 million, calculated and reviewed on the basis of a discounted cash flow method.

Goodwill, intangible assets, other assets and liabilities of around EUR 194 million were already recognized in the EPRA NAV. So end of March 2020, the adjusted NAV amounted to EUR 1.733 billion. After taking into account the dilutive effect of the capital increase on the Institutional Business adjustments in the amount of EUR 0.44 per share, the adjusted NAV is EUR 21.91 per share.

On Page 19, you will see the further improvement of our solid financial structure. The weighted average term of loans and borrowings stood at 4 years. Our average interest rate slightly increased to 2.1% due to the repayment of EUR 40 million of commercial paper. Our LTV adjusted for warehousing meets our strategic level of 45% and is 280 basis points lower than the value of end of December last year. Under the COVID-19 situation, sufficient cash is key and gives us high flexibility in the current market environment. On the one hand, we have a very robust liquidity cushion of EUR 342 million on hand, which will also again increase in the second quarter after the completed transfer of the warehouse project Infinity to our institutional clients. On the other hand, our maturities within the next 2 years are on a very low level, only EUR 103 million and EUR 72 million bank debt need to be refinanced and are still in progress in 2020 and 2021.

Going to Slide 21 now. As already mentioned at the beginning of the presentation, I would like to focus now on the COVID-19 crisis and what DIC is doing to manage the situation and what are the concrete impacts on our earnings this year. Let me first give you a brief summary about the current legal situation since the German parliament and Federal Council have passed the Act to Mitigate the Effects of the COVID-19 Pandemic end of March. The law indirectly allows for a deferral of rent by the tenant for 3 months without negative consequences, if tenants can prove that they are unable to pay their rent due to the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. Landlords cannot terminate these agreements due to delayed payments in April, May and June 2020. Outstanding rent payments must be paid [pro rata] within a maximum period of 24 months. Roughly 10 days ago, the German government announced the first stage of lockdown easing, including the official permit that retailers and shops can reopen their doors but under the condition that they ensure hygienic concepts are in place.

We follow the approach, getting through the COVID-19 pandemic together. What does it mean in concrete terms? We are currently in active dialogue with more than 300 tenants directly affected by the shutdown, primarily from the retail and hotel sectors and both segments. We strive to find an economically sustainable and individual solution case-by-case for our tenants and us as the landlord. This means that we offer, for instance, a temporary waiving of rents for a prolongation of the existing rental contract. Meanwhile, the gradual opening of businesses at the moment enables revenues again. In individual cases, possible concepts for subsequent use are developed as a precaution. The possible effects are already reflected in our updated outlook from the 3rd of April, with today's knowledge and anticipated assumptions. We already expect a reduced acquisition volume for both segments in 2020. In addition, within our main income streams, we expect a lower net rental income and management fees through the course of 2020. For the month, April, we saw a cash flow effect of around EUR 1.3 million from tenants who did not pay their rent. Despite the exogenous shock COVID-19 has caused globally, which also forced us to reduce our growth plans for this year, we can still broadly confirm that we see ourselves well positioned to reach an FFO at a high prior year level and that we will pay the dividend for 2019.

On Page 23, we would like to give you some guidance about the expected development in the second quarter and in the second half of 2020. For Q2 2020, we see the trend as following: we expect a slight decline in gross rental income due to the adjustments of the rental contracts and reduced acquisition target versus our original forecast; the real estate management fees should remain at a high level of the first quarter due to factors, including the completed Infinity club deal with nonrecurring and recurring management fees, a stable share of the profit of associates. For the second half year 2020, we see the trend as following: a further decline in rental income anticipated due to reduced acquisition target as well as possible increase in impairments arising from nonpayment of rents. Again, real estate management fees and share of the profit of associates will remain stable at a similar level to Q1, Q2 2020. Overall, the FFO will see a light reduction due to the above-mentioned effect of the coronavirus pandemic in Q3 and Q4 2020.

Before we now jump into the Q&A session, we, as usually, show you the complete updated guidance for the full year 2020. Beside an FFO of EUR 94 to EUR 96 -- sorry, EUR 94 million to EUR 96 million, we targeted an acquisition volume of EUR 0.7 billion to EUR 1.1 billion and a sales volume of around EUR 400 million. Furthermore, gross rental income of EUR 94 million to EUR 98 million and real estate management fees somewhere between EUR 80 million to EUR 90 million are expected.

Let me close my presentation with one final statement, an important message to our stakeholders. No one today could look into the crystal ball and foresee the further impact of COVID-19, and particularly, how sustainable the negative economic impact finally will be. But the road to normality has begun, and that's why we still believe in reaching our target of around EUR 10 billion for the assets under management in the midterm. Many thanks for your attention. We are now ready to take your questions.

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Questions and Answers

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Operator [1]

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And our first question. Caller, please announce yourself.

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Stefan Scharff, SRC-Scharff Research und Consulting GmbH - MD & Managing Partner [2]

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This is Stefan Scharff from SRC Research from Frankfurt. My first question is about the vacancy rate in the Commercial Portfolio. It's Slide 10. It goes up -- it went up a little bit from 6.5% at year-end to 8.4%. And if I'm right, you sold 1 property, perhaps you can say here a little bit more. And the next question is about Slide 22. You speak about adjustments of rental contracts. Perhaps you can say here a little bit more about your talks and about your -- the progress in talks and the rental contracts, in particular, in the retail -- in the part of the retail assets. The next question is about the rental maturities. We have 2.4% in 2020 and about 7% rental maturity in the next year, perhaps you can give us a split here, which assets are involved?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [3]

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Stefan, thank you for your question. The first question, vacancy rate. So as said, we are stable compared to Q1 2019, with 8.4% EPRA vacancy rate. So it's very normal that the contracts are ending at the end of the year, and we go up in the first quarter of the year. So that's a normal development. We also see this year. But we will follow our goal that we will bring down the EPRA vacancy rate until the end of the year. And what we try to have is that we have 7% before the point, so to say, and we are very confident that we reach this goal also under the situation we have now. So -- but the development is very normal. And we have some to come to what is the rest -- what we are doing in the rest of the year, so to say, even this is your question. So with -- and in Q1, we have 2.4% left for this year, but we are also negotiating the contracts for 2021 because normally we start around about, yes, 15 to 12 months before the contract ends to see what's the wish of our customers and what we can do there. And if they want to leave, we have to search new tenants and so on. So we negotiate also the contract for next year. And we have definitely to negotiate some of the big contracts, but as far as we see it, we have some in the pipeline. And we think at the moment, the tenants will stay, that's a very clear sign from them. And we will also increase our like-for-like. As you see, we have increased this in the first quarter of 6%. And I think this is a very good number. So it's a split of 8.8% for the Institutional Business, 8.8%, and 0.9% for the Commercial Portfolio. And we do not see a stop here or something going on within the crisis, so to say. So at the end of the year, we are sure to reach our 7% goal.

So for the contracts, and I understood you right, you mean the contracts we have negotiated during the first quarter, reflecting the influences from COVID-19. So we are following the rule that we say, the tenants which are in the assets should stay. If they are not insolvent or having other problems with their business model, we want to see them stay. And so the question is, how can we support them? And some of the discussions we are following is for the big rental agreements that we say for the month, April, May and June, where the losses they can defer their rentals, renegotiate a new contract. For example, they pay only 50% of the rent, and we take the other 50%. And then we, yes, on -- sorry. We extend the contract in total for 3 to 6 months. So that we now have them for the 3 months, April, May and June. And on the other hand, they extend their contract. Does this answer your question, if I understood it right?

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Operator [4]

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And our next question. Caller, please announce yourself.

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [5]

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It's Andre Remke from Baader Bank. A couple of questions, starting with, you mentioned effects from corona already towards the end of the last quarter i.e., affecting the first quarter. Are you able to quantify this in terms of FFO impact and which income streams are mostly affected? This is the first question, please.

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [6]

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Andre, thanks for the question. Yes, it's a very interesting question. And so we have done a lot of calculations and sit together here, the whole team, to see what's going on and which are the effects on our -- on the one hand, rental income and on the other hand, of the FFO, but also on the rental income of the Institutional Business, because we are paid on -- to some extent on the rental income of the Institutional Business. What we see is on the one hand, the effect on the gross rental income coming from the new negotiated contracts, I explained to Stefan some minutes ago. And therefore, we see around about EUR 0.7 million at the moment in the gross rental income, but on the other hand, we have said we will have some evaluation allowances. And we have put in around about EUR 5 million in the other property-related expenses, so they are reflected in the net rental income there. Because we think, on the one hand, not every of our tenants will overcome the crisis on the one hand. And on the other hand, we will see some discussions in the future for rental decrease and so on. So we have taken these amounts into our FFO calculation.

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [7]

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And this was already affected in the first quarter, right?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [8]

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Pardon? In the first quarter?

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [9]

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The numbers you mentioned, this was EUR 5 million in other, let's say, provisions, this already affected the first quarter?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [10]

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No, no. This does not affect the first quarter. In the first quarter, we have only in what we have negotiated end of March. So we have started in a very early stage to renegotiate our contracts. This is what we have in for the rest of the year. So the total impact, I mentioned, is in -- as of new FFO guidance, around about EUR 95 million for the total year 2020.

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [11]

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Yes. Okay. Second question, you gave us the update on COVID already 3 weeks ago. Since then, do you observe any worsening or easing with the discussions with the tenants that you are surprised on the negative or positive side here, how also your clients or tenants handle this? But the question also goes to the fund business. What is your observations on the investment market? How are your institutional investors reacting at the moment?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [12]

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Third first, what do our tenants think. So I can say -- as said, we are negotiating more than 300 tenant agreements. And as you can imagine, there are a lot, a lot, a lot smaller ones. And they are very glad. They said thank you for calling us and discussing this with us. I think this was the first point to start a discussion and not to say a, please pay and let us be there. So they are very glad that we discuss it. And so it's just very good discussion so that we come to an end and to the renegotiations I mentioned some minutes ago. Nevertheless, you have 2 or 3 tenants with whom you cannot find, yes, decisions. And as you know, some of the retailers are in negotiations about insolvency. So we do not know really -- we do not really know what's going on there and how this will end. But therefore, we have the provisions in, I mentioned some minutes ago. And on the other hand, we have started to find some solutions if they are insolvent or if they want to go out.

So what do we do with the asset instead of the existing usage? Yes. From the Institutional side, there is, yes, no major change, so to say. On the one hand, the Institution Business is in a very good shape in the existing vehicles. On the other hand, the investors are very interested in going forward in bringing the equity in the market to work on it. And for example, the infrastructure segment is -- there is no change. So there is a lot of interest in infrastructure assets because they think they are very stable. The tenants are very stable with long contracts. And so this is a very safe position to have assets on the infrastructure basis. On the other hand, the institutional investors, they -- okay. We see the crisis. We see the situation. And please develop a situation for us and do their negotiations and so on. So there is no doubt that they will reduce the equity commitments or that they will go out. Or as I say, please sell the asset. It's the other way around. It's -- we have a real estate specialist here in place for caring about the assets, and we see the effect on this and so please go ahead. In -- on the one hand, creating new vehicles. And on the other hand, stay within the funds and the vehicles we have in place.

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [13]

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Excellent. Very good. As a last question, you mentioned refinancing of some EUR 100 million this year. But also, I guess, you are probably in regular financing discussions with partners in the Institutional Business. So could you provide us with your most recent views or discussions with partners in terms of what changed over the last 2 months in general, i.e., in higher margins or asking for, say, for stricter covenants, et cetera?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [14]

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So on the one hand, our partners, especially the banks are very, very busy, but not with the liabilities they gave now, but with the, yes, with the consequences of this COVID-19 and all these liabilities they have to do for the card fee and so on. So they have a lot of other clients now, which have -- or who have a problem and which is very -- yes, which is very -- and very, yes, I don't know...

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [15]

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Serious.

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [16]

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Serious, yes, they are in a serious trouble. So they want to discuss the financing with us. As I say, you don't have a problem, you are in a very good shape. So we finance all these assets you want to get financed. So there is no doubt about that we get the financing in place. What we see is that the cost of liquidity increased over the last weeks, and this is -- yes, it's going up and it's going down. But at the end of the day, it says that the interbank financing is more expensive than it was before the corona crisis. So this, at the end of the day, will increase the overall costs. The margins are as before the crisis, so the banks didn't increase their margin until now. But at the end of the day, there is no impact on the evaluations of the assets itself. So we do not see a reduce of the valuation of the assets. We do not see problems that the banks say we do not want to finance it. We do not see the problem that they say, "Hey, we can send nobody out to evaluate the assets." So this is normal business. But at the end of the day, they are very business, and it takes a little bit longer to get the term sheets and to discuss with them. And so to say it very clearly, it's a little bit more expensive because of the liquidity costs. And thereof, it depends a little bit, if you go to the Landesbank or to a [bank customer], but it's more expensive. But we expect the liquidity cost to come down over the next weeks when it is more normal again. On the other hand, the financings are coming. So no restrictions from banks there.

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Andre Remke, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Co-Head of Equity Research & Equity Analyst [17]

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And they do not put in place higher restrictions in terms of covenants for new contracts, for example?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [18]

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No, no, no. We haven't seen it until now. No.

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Operator [19]

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(Operator Instructions) And our next question. Caller, please announce yourself.

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Georg Kanders, Bankhaus Lampe KG, Research Division - Investment Analyst [20]

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It's Georg Kanders from Bankhaus Lampe. Hello?

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Operator [21]

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Yes, sir, and your question?

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Georg Kanders, Bankhaus Lampe KG, Research Division - Investment Analyst [22]

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I hope so. So the question I have for -- is maturities for 2020 and '21, what is the average interest costs on these? And the second question is regarding transaction fee income. Do you still expect some transaction fee income in H2?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [23]

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Georg, thanks for the question. Yes, we expect around 1.7% all-in interest for the financings we are doing at the moment. These are 2 assets to say it very clearly. And we are in the end of the negotiation of the term sheet. So as I said, around about 1.7%. And we see also a lot of transaction possibilities in the market, so to say. I said it yesterday, I don't see a change in the market -- transaction market until now as well as in the letting market. We are in negotiations of a lot of lettings, re-lettings, new lettings on the one hand. And we also have a lot of transaction possibilities in the pipeline. So what we want to do is, we want not to overpay it. So we are in negotiations, but we definitely do not want to count on the prices that we have paid before the crisis. So we will see transactions, definitely. Therefore, we have decreased our transaction volume goal for 2020, but we have not said we will not have transactions. And as said, we see around about EUR 200 million to EUR 300 million for the Commercial Portfolio, but the rest of it is for the Institutional Business. We have a lot of equity commitments already from the institutional investors, and we see also chances to invest them and we get a lot of interest from other institutional investors. So if nothing special happened, yes, I don't have the crystal ball, from the perspective now, we will see transactions and transaction fees for the rest of the year.

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Georg Kanders, Bankhaus Lampe KG, Research Division - Investment Analyst [24]

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Yes. The other question I have is regarding the loans that will mature in 2020 and 2021. What is the average interest costs on these?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [25]

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I think -- so around about 1.8%, we have now in place. So this is really the same interest rate, which we have now as the one we are negotiating at the moment. So there's not a change by refinancing them.

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Georg Kanders, Bankhaus Lampe KG, Research Division - Investment Analyst [26]

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Okay. That's what I hoped for, that there would be further relief. Okay.

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [27]

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Yes.

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Operator [28]

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And our next question comes from Manuel Martin.

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Manuel Martin, ODDO BHF Corporate & Markets, Research Division - Analyst [29]

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It's Manuel Martin from ODDO BHF. Two questions, please, if I may. One follow-up question, maybe also on the transaction market. Do you think that prices might fall in H2 compared to H1 due to corona? That would be the first question, please.

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [30]

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Yes. I think, yes. So we have seen 1 transaction now. So it was negotiated before corona and now we have seen the transaction in place. So we were not the one who made the game. So another, yes, fella came and sets the deal, but we saw that the price were renegotiated, and the price went down a little bit over the last week. So we expect the prices to go down at the average. But I think you have to split it. On the one hand, you see the very, as I said, the very interesting -- the very big interest in assets which have a tenant in the public sector, yes, like we did now with Hansestadt Hamburg, yes, and for example, [Lancaster] or something like this, there is a very big interest in such assets and such tenants. On the other hand, also, logistic is very interesting. There is not such a lot of interest in retail, yes. And I think the prices will go down there, even when there are transactions in the retail segment. But overall, the prices, from my perspective, from our perspective, will go down a little bit. And then it depends on the time when the normality comes back and also, the real estate sector comes back a little bit more. And we expect it to be in the second half. So the real estate sector in total is a very interesting sector that hasn't changed until now, also within the crisis. And the prices, yes, will go down a little bit, yes, overall.

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Manuel Martin, ODDO BHF Corporate & Markets, Research Division - Analyst [31]

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Okay. So does that mean that the, let's say, the high-quality assets with tenants and good locations might be relatively safe? And other properties in, let's say, unfavorable sectors or shaky tenants could come under pressure? Might that be a correct interpretation?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [32]

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Yes, I think so. So if you see some of the retail tenants, you might have read this also, are in negotiations of insolvency or have also done this act here. So the -- yes, the assets which have a lot of retail percentage in place will not be the ones where the prices go up, yes. I don't think it. On the other hand, if you read about what a customer think would -- where they want to buy in future, there's not such a lot of change to e-commerce or something like this. So we will see what happens after the crisis has ended and when a normal life comes back. So there might be also a chance that retail comes back also the high street retail, because people during the crisis have seen that they want to go out and want to shop. So I don't foresee the midterm future there. But for the moment, there is not such a big interest in retail. So good locations for offices and for especially public tenants are very interesting also from us as from the institutional investors.

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Manuel Martin, ODDO BHF Corporate & Markets, Research Division - Analyst [33]

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Okay. And a follow-up question on that. As we had talked about prices, what do you think about rents? Will the picture be dissimilar to that of the prices or good locations, unchanged rents, not good locations rents going down?

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [34]

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First point, we do not see any change at the moment. So our letting activities are going on. And we see also the tenants coming in. So the negotiations have not been stopped, have not changed or something like this. And I think also the same picture is on the transaction market, yes. And as you look on the situation before the crisis, I've always said, okay, the transaction prices are not a plus, it's all to say, because the rents were up, yes. So the like-for-like rents increased over the last 2 years coming back. So the basis for the transaction prices was not a plus, so to say. And we see the letting prices not changing, and I don't expect them to change. So the first answer is, I don't expect the letting volume to come down, besides retail, yes, I only talk about offices and logistics and so on. And I don't think that the prices will decrease.

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Operator [35]

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And our next question comes from Jochen Schmitt with Metzler.

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Jochen Schmitt, Metzler Equities, Research Division - Research Analyst [36]

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It's Jochen Schmitt from Bankhaus Metzler. Just a clarification on Slide 12 on the second bullet. When referring to performance fees, have they all been linked to transactions in Q1 '20? That's my question.

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [37]

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Jochen, could you please repeat it? I have not understood it rhetorically? Sorry.

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Jochen Schmitt, Metzler Equities, Research Division - Research Analyst [38]

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Yes, sorry. On Slide 12, when referring to performance fees in Q1 '20, have they all been linked to transactions? That's my question.

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Sonja Wärntges, DIC Asset AG - Chairwoman of the Management Board & CEO [39]

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Yes. The performances fees have been linked to transactions. So we have -- from the purchasing side, we have EUR 8.4 million on the transaction, mainly on the Stadthaus, Cologne and Bundeskriminalamt, Wiesbaden. And on the sales side, we have EUR 5.2 million. It's also parting. We have a development in parting, which we have sold in Q1 and -- for institutional investors and on Bundeskriminalamt, Wiesbaden. So to answer this question, the fees are coming on the one hand from the purchasing side, EUR 8.4 million and from the sales side, EUR 5.2 million.

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Operator [40]

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We have no further questions in the queue at this time, ma'am.

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Peer Schlinkmann, DIC Asset AG - Head of IR & Corporate Communications [41]

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It's Peer speaking. Thank you for listening today to our first quarter conference call. If you have any follow-up questions, please just now give us a call. Again, thank you for listening today. Bye-bye.