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Edited Transcript of DTY.L earnings conference call or presentation 31-Jul-19 8:00am GMT

Half Year 2019 Dignity PLC Earnings Call

London Aug 7, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Dignity PLC earnings conference call or presentation Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 8:00:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Michael Kinloch McCollum

Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director

* Stephen Lee Whittern

Dignity plc - Finance Director & Director

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Conference Call Participants

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* Andrew Mark Whitney

Investec Bank plc, Research Division - Analyst

* Calum Battersby

Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG, Research Division - Analyst

* Jamie Fletcher

Stockviews, Ltd. - Analyst

* Keith John Hiscock

Hardman & Co. - CEO

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Presentation

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [1]

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Good morning, everyone. Thanks for coming along. This is the Dignity interim investor presentation. I'll just flip through the first couple of slides. So our agenda is pretty straightforward. We're going to cover the interim results. We'll talk to you a little bit about the CMA and the Treasury, a little bit more about our transformation plan, outlook and then Q&A.

So on Page 4, if we look at the results, I don't think there's any great surprises in here. Yes, of course, there is a reduction in operating profits and EPS from the previous year, which was expected based on previous statements that we've made. And you'll be familiar with those numbers. The primary driver of what's going on here, of course, is the number of deaths, which is 7% down this year compared to last year, which has an impact on the financial performance of the company.

On Page 5, I'll just cover the key points. So as I mentioned, deaths significantly lower, which has affected the financial performance in a -- in the way that was expected. Funeral market share remains stable. So this was the case throughout last year. By way of quick reminder, we'd seen our market share decline quite considerably during 2016 and '17, and we saw it stabilize following price reductions at the beginning of 2018. And our funeral market share continues to be stable at the half year compared to where we started this year, at the end of last year, so good news there. Transformation is on track. I'll talk a little bit more about that later on, but the message clearly is transformation is on track with pilot branches. So our pilot network structure commencing in the second half of the year. And we've seen strong market share performance in our crematorium business. Our Simplicity, which is online-only, low-cost cremation business, continues to grow strongly. We've had good engagement with the CMA, who are investigating our sector. We welcome the announcement that the FCA are going to regulate prepaid funeral plans; we've been calling for that for some time. And we've made the decision to temporarily cease paying dividends. There is nothing else in here about that, so I'll just tackle that now.

We -- there are a lot of changes that are on this page. There is a lot of uncertainty in our sector. There are a lot of changes in the sector. And although my perspective is that the business is doing -- I'm very pleased actually with how things are going relative to how we would have expected them to go -- the business remains very cash generative, we have about GBP 50 million of cash on the balance sheet -- but given the uncertainties, we feel that the right thing to do is to keep our powder dry and to retain some flexibility and liquidity in our business. So we're going to stop paying the dividends. We'll keep the cash on the balance sheet. Assuming things work out as we expect, then we'll have an excess of cash on the balance sheet. We've demonstrated on a number of occasions that we're very happy to return money to shareholders. On many occasions, we've returned cash. We've returned twice our original market capitalization in cash. So this just gives us a degree of optionality. If things don't quite go as expected, then we will be grateful for the liquidities on the balance sheet, the cash on the balance sheet. If things do go as expected, we'll return the money to shareholders. So it feels that this is the right time for us to make this decision for our business. So it's a purely pragmatic response to the environment that the company finds itself in.

On Page 6, I mentioned the number of deaths. You can see the charts on this page. So at the end of the first quarter, deaths were 12% down on the previous year. We said at that time that based on history, you would expect the full year deaths to be within 3% of the prior year. At the half year, deaths are 7% lower, and we've certainly seen May, June, and it looks like it's carrying on in July, the deaths are ahead of prior year. So the reversion to that range of plus or minus 3% that we talked about at the end of the first quarter does appear to be coming through. So deaths are behaving the way we're expecting, getting closer to last year. And I would just point out at the top chart here, the ONS' expectations for deaths across the U.K. continue to be that they'll increase to 700,000 by 2040, compared to currently a run rate that looks consistent with about 580,000 this year. So the long-term trend for deaths continues to be up after several years of down. But this year, it does look like there are going to be fewer deaths than we'd expected, but within the range that we talked about after the first quarter.

Page 7, market share. On the left-hand side, you can see where we jumped off the end of 2018 market share and where we are at H1 '19. So the market share is very solid indeed, which, after the declines that we'd seen historically, I'm pleased about. And it's an important response to see to our marketing activity and the pricing decisions that we've made. And the cremation market share on the right-hand side, yes, a step up there. It's mainly driven by unattended cremations. So our Simplicity business is driven from direct cremation. So there is no funeral service, there is no funeral director. That's something that we are seeing growing somewhat. I wouldn't read too much into the increase in market share. Clearly, it's welcome in the crematorium business, but this is only 6 months. Things do jump around. We don't have a perfect geographic coverage. It could just be noise or it could be real. We don't know at this time, but clearly it's welcome.

On Page 8, averages. So deaths are returning to what -- towards where we expected and have pointed in the past. Market share remains consistent, which is good, and our average income is performing in the second quarter the way we expected it to. So we said at the start of the year that we thought the average income for our funeral business would come out to GBP 2,940. We were pretty precise. We said at the end of the first quarter, we expected it to go up a bit, and so it has. So second quarter, the average income was GBP 2,938, pretty -- very consistent with the GBP 2,940 that we talked about. Interestingly, in the second quarter of this year, the overall average is exactly the same as it was in the second quarter of last year. But you can see from these numbers, we got there via a very different route. So there is a number of things going on there. There's the average income we're achieving for full-service funerals. You can see that's gone down, and that's expected. But mix shifts mean that overall the average has remained the same, and as I said, consistent with the guidance that we've been giving for the year.

So I'll hand over to Steve, but I will just briefly say deaths look like they're going where we expected, market share remains stable and averages are behaving as we expected them to behave.

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Stephen Lee Whittern, Dignity plc - Finance Director & Director [2]

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Thanks, Mike. Good morning, everybody. So just picking up on the numbers on Slide 9 for those that are listening in. So as far as funeral service is concerned, clearly big impact from the number of deaths period-on-period. Much smaller impact from market share. So as Mike said, stable market share, flat against what you saw 2018 finish at compared to the first half of the year slightly down. So you see a slight adverse [movement], and then average income coming down, you get a bit of an impact.

On the cost side, I think costs have been good. Clearly, a benefit there. You would have expected that cost base to maybe take a step up, volume -- on flat volumes, just given inflation, so good there. Nothing specific, just generally keeping on our own stuff, which means, overall, you have that -- okay, decline in profitability, but fundamentally coming from the number of deaths.

As far as crems are concerned, similar story, really. So you have the impact from deaths. That strong market share Mike was talking about has a positive impact. Given we didn't really move pricing on crems by that much, you see hardly any movement from average incomes and cost base broadly moving in line with inflation, so very much under control and remains a good underpin to our overall financial performance.

As far as central overheads are concerned, okay, up 22.7% year-on-year. So that's entirely consistent with the indications we gave when we came out with prelims. Prelims we said 25% to 30%, reflecting that continued investment, both on the marketing and central staffing to help support those later activities on the transformation where we can centralize more activities. So entirely consistent. And by way of illustration, when we talk about number of heads, you go back to 2015 and just think about our HR or IT or marketing functions as being run with about 40 people. Now it's up to about 100. So there's really significant investment there to help support the business and what it's doing.

Crem developments are going well. So one further one there, Huntingdon, that we've announced, and therefore, you see a step up in terms of the overall investment required. Others, no real developments. They continue as we've described there, but nice to have another one in the bag.

Pre-need, Slide 13. So a couple of things here. So from a cash perspective, by way of reminder, middle of last year, we would reduce the amount of marketing allowance we took at the point of sale with a view to making no economic profit from our marketing activities. So you see that in our underlying performance in 2019. So entirely what you would have expected.

On top of that, you then have noise from the delights of IFRS 15 that plays fun and games with the numbers that you would have seen in the announcement, and we've given some reconciliations towards the back end of the document. I think the good news from your perspective, which is what I said at prelims as well, is we have maintained our underlying performance measures to exclude the impact of IFRS 15. So your underlying numbers are entirely comparable period-on-period, fundamentally reflecting the fact that as a business, we continue to run it in the same economic way. So you have clarity there. When you look at statutory numbers, you will see various noise. You see GBP 100 million of deferred commissions on the balance sheet. You see GBP 200 million of deferred revenues going as a way that get released as and when those plans are performed, but we've already had the cash, already spent the cash in the case of the commissions already. So just bear that in mind.

Talking of cash, and as Mike said at the very beginning, we continue to generate cash in a very predictable way. We're pleased with how that's going. One of the things that jumps out from this page is obviously the CapEx spend, so a little bit lower than we've seen in previous years, reflecting what I said at prelims. We expected to spend less this year, generally, probably more like GBP 15 million, GBP 16 million, picking up on the fact that you have the transformation taking place. One of the main things we're expecting from a CapEx perspective that's bringing down those numbers is fleet. So we were spending GBP 7 million, GBP 8 million on fleet every year. Given the transformation, given the expectations, reduce that number of fleet within the portfolio in the coming years. We don't need to spend as much in the next couple of years while we sort that out. And therefore, you're seeing that maintenance CapEx a little bit lower. You'll also see a bit of noise with some of it being classified as transformation CapEx that you see in the announcement rather than maintenance. Ultimately, it's the same thing. It's just being done through the transformation rather than normal business as usual, but still very cash generative. And as Mike said, we finished the year -- finished the end of June still with about GBP 50 million in the bank. So basically flat on where we finished the end of '18.

That brings us on to capital structure. So probably a couple of observations. As far as the covenant is concerned, so by way of reminder, the debt structure relies on one single covenant test that requires EBITDA to total debt service, which is a fixed number of GBP 34 million, to be at or above 1.5x. At the end of June, it was 2.85x. So we had roughly GBP 19 million of EBITDA headroom against that covenant test. Given where market expectations are for EBIT of about GBP 64 million this year, that would suggest that H2 for this year will be slightly ahead of last year, and therefore you would expect, based on current market, for that headroom to increase rather than decline further. It's not a covenant test, but there is a separate hurdle if we want to use the spare cash generated by that debt structure in different ways and move it up to PLC. So rather than 1.5x to 1, that's required to be 1.85x to 1. So against that level, we still have headroom of about GBP 7 million.

Now in both cases, on top of that, one of the other things we have up our sleeve, if we wanted to, is we have assets not in that debt structure that sit outside, that currently generate round about GBP 13 million to GBP 15 million of EBITDA. We have an unfettered ability to transfer those assets into the debt structure at any point of time of our choosing. It doesn't require cash to be paid between; you can do on intercompany subordinated debt, and therefore that can act to create further headroom against that covenant headroom from the moment it starts to transfer in. The way the docs work, you don't get an automatic annualized benefit. You don't suddenly get a step-up in headroom of GBP 13 million to GBP 15 million. You will start to count in over each quarter and build over 12 months. But that's up our sleeve. We've chosen not to because we don't think we need to. Having those assets outside with the RCF still undrawn generating cash that's free to use is still clearly very useful to us, but that option is always up our sleeve if we want to do it. Those of you that follow the debt structure, you may have picked up the fact that S&P downgraded both classes of notes earlier this month. By way of reminder, that doesn't change anything from us corporately. It doesn't introduce any further restrictions. It still means we just have to keep judging ourselves against that covenant test and still paying GBP 34 million a year. So no impact on us, and you actually didn't see the bond pricing move that much either. So I think it [is] in the price and expected.

So as far as net debt is concerned, you've seen that decline predictably in line with the schedules we've given you guys over the past in the appendices, following the amortization of the debt. Cash remains stable. Remember our timings of our year-ends. So sometimes we have to hold cash back because we have to pay on the last business day, which is why you see this idea of restricted cash on our balance sheet is just a timing point. So cash still remains strong. Good reserves, continued ability to fund the transformation from those existing resources and fund what we need to do, so a healthy position.

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [3]

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Okay. I'll pick it back up again and talk briefly about the CMA and the Treasury. So on Page 18, there is a brief update. Clearly, the CMA isn't -- their investigation is ongoing. We're expecting them to give some preliminary findings in the early -- probably the end of the first quarter next year and come out with their full findings towards the end of the third quarter next year. That's the approximate time scale that we're expecting. There will be a number of position papers that they'll publish, which we and other people will comment on along the way. So there will be noise along the way as they publish certain things. We'll respond to those. That will all be in the public domain, but the real -- so that notwithstanding that noise, the most important thing to focus on is where their final findings settle, which we won't know until next year.

We've been fully engaged with the CMA. We hosted the site visit. They came to visit some of our funeral locations, and they came to a crematorium of ours. Last week, we sat in front of their panel at a long session, answered their questions, and we have a good team of people working with us who are engaging with the CMA. And I think we are really putting our best foot forward and making as good representations to them as we can.

On Page 19, the Treasury. We've been calling for this. We welcome this. Most of the partners that we sell pre-arranged funeral plans with are FCA-regulated financial services organizations. So the announcement that the FCA are going to regulate the pre-arranged business, we welcome. There are a number of people selling plans in the market whose business models will probably not be viable in a regulated environment. Inevitably, there will be changes for us. We don't know what shape this regulation is going to take, but inevitably there will be some changes for us. I'm not suggesting that there will be no changes, but we think net-net, this is positive news for us because we expect our business model to involve fewer changes than several other people out in the market. So early days. We'll keep updating you on this, but we are pleased to see that the FCA will be regulating the market.

If I turn to the transformation plan on Page 21. The writing on this slide is extremely small. There are 3 main points though that I want to draw out from it, so -- 4 really. One, the transformation is on track. It's a big program that we're working through. But fundamentally, we remain on track with our transformation program. And three things to draw your attention to. Number one, in the second half of this year, we will be doing our first pilot networks. So we're going from 120 to 75 networks, that's what we've talked about before. We have 3 pilot networks going live in the second half of this year, which is the opportunity for us to test that everything is going to work as we expected. And then that opens the door to the full rollout commencing next year over 2020 and 2021 across the rest of the country. So the pilot networks are important.

Secondly, good progress still being made on our digital activity. In terms of our presence and visibility online, our Funeral Notices is -- Funeral Notices -- it's not an app, but web-based thing -- is now fully rolled out across the network. And we're seeing more and more online reviews. We're scoring very highly. Our average score on 5,000 reviews so far is 4.95 out of 5. So that's working well. So a lot of activity on the digital side.

And then central resources, Steve's already mentioned this, but the object -- one of the objectives is to take process and administration out of the network and do that in a more streamlined way centrally. You have to put the resource in before you can realize the benefits out in the network. So good progress being made there. So overall, transformation remains on track.

On Page 22, this is just a reminder of what the transformation is. I'm not going to overlabor this, but effectively, we're investing GBP 50 million, net GBP 33 million net of property disposals. We expect to achieve GBP 8 million per annum in financial cost savings. However, I would characterize it as the changes we're making in our transformation program are necessary for the future. Beyond the period of the transformation program, as we look further into the future, as more and more people go online, as people start dealing with us centrally, then the centralization and automation of processes, the separation of front and back of house and the building strong brands online and in the public's perception and the way we present our prices, the things that we've talked about in the transformation program, really this is the gate to opportunities for us beyond the period of the next 2 or 3 years. So remains on track. And I think I've probably said enough on that.

I'll also flip over to Page 23. This is just saying what I've pretty much said already about our objectives for the year and the progress that we've made.

So outlook, on Page 25. Really, the message is no change from what we talked about after Q1. So there is no change to our outlook for the rest of the year. Yes, deaths are looking like they're going to be lower than we had initially expected, but the number of deaths compared to last year is behaving as we expect them to and is headed towards that 3% range.

Market share is solid, average is solid, doing what we're expecting and the transformation program on track. So if deaths do settle at 580,000, then we would expect our EBIT to be 3 or -- absent any other changes, we'd expect our EBIT to be at GBP 3 million to GBP 4 million lower than previously expected. Again, that's exactly what we said at the end of Q1.

And the final slide, CEO statement. I'm not going to read this all to you, but the very last sentence, "We look forward to delivering our vision to lead the funeral sector in terms of quality, standards and value for money," is very much the case.

So thank you for listening to that. I'll hand it over for questions. Oh yes, and if you ask a question you probably need a microphone because we are webcasting this.

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Questions and Answers

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Andrew Mark Whitney, Investec Bank plc, Research Division - Analyst [1]

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It's Andrew Whitney from Investec. Just 2 quick ones from me, if I may. In Q1, you removed the limited service offering. And I saw actually the mix of the funerals was relatively consistent 2Q on 1Q. Is that -- is -- when I think about modeling, is that what we should be expecting going forward? Or is there anything else that could come that could alter that mix, you think, from here?

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [2]

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I think the most important thing to focus on, the thing we focus on, is the overall average -- number of funerals and the overall average. Obviously we, for some time now, have been giving quite a lot of detail as the mix between full-service, limited and simple. So it remains the case that our objective is to move away from our traditional way of presenting our services to an unbundled approach. We're trialing that in about 1/4 of our business at the moment. It's pretty much doing what we're expecting it to. We're tweaking it, and then we'll roll that out around the rest of the country. So that has an impact on the full-service average, and you can see some of that in the numbers in the second quarter of this year. But it will also have an impact on the mix, the percentage of people who choose the simple funeral as opposed to a full-service funeral. So I think you could tie yourself in knots trying to forensically work out the different bits of the mix. From our point of view, it's really just the average income, the bottom line average income that we're focusing on, which is doing what we have expected it to do. And certainly based on what we're seeing from the unbundled tailored funeral service, we expect that to be consistent with the average we're achieving at the moment.

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Stephen Lee Whittern, Dignity plc - Finance Director & Director [3]

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There's been -- you'll get other noise from things like Simplicity as it grows as well visually on the mix, but don't get hung up about it.

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Andrew Mark Whitney, Investec Bank plc, Research Division - Analyst [4]

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That's helpful. And then the other one, just on the temporary cessation of the dividend. Is there an event or a level that you're thinking about where you might do a return to shareholders or switch it back on?

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [5]

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I think, genuinely, we'll have to play that by ear. So as I've said previously, we've demonstrated that we are very shareholder-friendly, I hope, returning money to shareholders where we have excess cash on the balance sheet, and that very much will be the expectation. But I think we just have to judge circumstances as they go along. If things work out as we expect and as they appear to be working out at the moment, then once a few of the uncertainties become clearer, then of course, we will make a decision to return money to shareholders at that time. But it's a question of when things become clearer, so it's difficult to make very categoric assertions at this stage.

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Calum Battersby, Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG, Research Division - Analyst [6]

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Calum Battersby from Berenberg. Two questions from me. Firstly, probably for Steve, wondering what the implications are of moving assets into the securitization group debt structure, as I think you implied could to be done in the future. Basically trying to understand this is the limit what you could do with those assets in terms of CapEx spend, disposing of freehold, et cetera. And secondly, you referred to it quickly there, Mike, but I wonder if you could give any more comment on the trials around unbundling of pricing. I think in Q1, you were mentioning that those have probably gone slightly worse than anticipated. But from kind of where weighted average pricing has turned out here, it implied probably that isn't the case in Q2.

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [7]

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So we -- if I take my one first, and then I'll hand it over to Steve to talk about the securitization stuff. We have made some tweaks to -- we put it into about 1/4 of our business. We saw that it was promising, but not quite delivering what we expected on the elements that aren't included in the base price. So if in the past everything was bundled together, we're moving towards a, "Here is everything that would constitute a full normal bespoke service, but you can add things to it." We've made some tweaks to that. We have seen an improvement in the average income as a result of that. And I would say we're on the cusp of beginning the rollout across the rest of the country. It will take a little while because the way that the people in our branches have to present the funerals, with this unbundled pricing structure, is different to how they've done it historically. So there is a good degree of training and getting people to understand what's in it. So it's not like turning a switch and everyone can have it. It does have to be a -- it's a geographic rollout as people get the training. But yes, we have made some changes to it, we did see an improvement in the average, and in the round, we expect that to be completely consistent with the average income that we're making at the moment. And now I'll pass to you, Steve.

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Stephen Lee Whittern, Dignity plc - Finance Director & Director [8]

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As far as the assets are concerned, so once they're in, the reality is, over the years, each time we've issued more debt, we've refined the documents so they work practically for us as a business. So no, we don't envisage any time soon needing to make any changes to the doc to give us further flexibility to spend CapEx, sell properties. That's all in the plan, and we can do it as far as the docs are concerned. Moving the assets in, we can do it at a moment of our choosing, as I was saying. Once they're in, CapEx on those assets is just like anything else. There is nothing to stop us spending money on CapEx.

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Jamie Fletcher, Stockviews, Ltd. - Analyst [9]

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Jamie Fletcher from Stockviews. Couple of questions from me, please. So the first one was -- so with the pilots for the funeral homes, I was wondering if you're getting any feedback from staff so far.

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [10]

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It's a little early to say because we really are at the point of making the announcements internally and telling the people in the branches that are affected by the pilots what it means for them personally. So it's early to say. But the whole point of piloting is so that we can see, is there [adopture]? Is there something in the plan that -- "Nobody is doing this now, this is falling between the cracks," or the reaction from both clients or staff is really horrendous. Those are sort of things we're looking at to see have we got our thinking right. And then from there, we'll start rolling it out across the country. So too early to say. It's just happening.

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Jamie Fletcher, Stockviews, Ltd. - Analyst [11]

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Yes. Okay. And then the other one was, so the growth in average memorial sales, I was just wondering what kind of client is actually driving that? Is that typically people who are also paying for a full-service funeral? Or is this people who are maybe saving money on a more simple funeral?

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [12]

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When you refer to memorials, what are you talking about? Are you talking about in...

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Jamie Fletcher, Stockviews, Ltd. - Analyst [13]

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This is the average revenue from memorial sales within the crematoria.

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [14]

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Oh right, within the crematorium business. I mean we've been selling memorials in the crematoriums for a long time, so it's really just an ongoing program. The vast majority of people take the ashes away from crematoriums and don't have a memorial in the grounds, but a percentage of people, about 20% of people, leave the ashes at the crematorium and then buy some kind of memorial, from burying the ashes in the ground so it's very attractive, to an entry in the book of remembrance, and a whole range of options in between. So I wouldn't say there is any one particular thing that's happening. It's just an ongoing -- it's ongoing work in that business rather than anything specific.

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Stephen Lee Whittern, Dignity plc - Finance Director & Director [15]

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I think the average has gone up by about GBP 15 period-on-period. That's within the range of noise rather than anything else. I wouldn't overinterpret that. You see that's sort of movement historically.

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Keith John Hiscock, Hardman & Co. - CEO [16]

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Keith Hiscock from Hardman. You're talking in the transformation plan about rightsizing the network, which I guess is code for downsizing the number of outlets and I guess the funeral homes businesses. Perhaps, the last ones have a massive presence on the high street. Do you have in mind any sense as to where the number might go to?

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [17]

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So -- when we've talked about this previously -- so the business works on a hub-and-spoke system. We're going from 120 to approximately 75 networks. So that's the logistics side of the business. Then we have over 800 funeral locations. And what we've said previously is within the transformation, we expect about 100 of those smaller locations, where we've got geographic overlap, to be closed. That will be towards the end of the 3-year period. And really, those numbers haven't changed. I suppose, looking beyond that, once we've made these changes, is it likely, if we can persuade clients to deal with us centrally rather than their first port of call being in our local branches, that the general direction of travel -- once we've centralized and automated our processes and get people through the branding and the web to talk to us centrally -- the direction of travel beyond that must be that the number of locations will continue to shrink. So that's beyond the existing transformation time scale, but that's my expectation. But there's no hard numbers around that.

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Unidentified Analyst, [18]

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Gentlemen, a more general question for you. I note what you say about the Chairman, and that you need a different skill set and expertise and experience. Can you tell me what you are looking for in the Chairman? Because I'm trying to see the shape of the business and what it will look, and more importantly, feel like after the transformation.

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Michael Kinloch McCollum, Dignity plc - CEO & Executive Director [19]

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From my personal point of view, the situation that we find ourselves in at the moment is one of significant change externally and internally. And therefore, one would look for somebody with a cool head under pressure. And so that's -- rather than that being specific technical expertise, I would say, it's more a type of person that has deep experience, is accustomed to things changing course, being in a situation of change and can keep their head when all about them are losing theirs. So I would say, it's a type of person more so than specific technical expertise.

Okay. That looks like it. So thank you very much for coming. Thank you for listening in online, and we'll leave it there.