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Edited Transcript of GFT.DE earnings conference call or presentation 7-Nov-19 9:00am GMT

Nine Months 2019 GFT Technologies SE Earnings Call

STUTTGART Nov 15, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of GFT Technologies SE earnings conference call or presentation Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 9:00:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript


Corporate Participants


* Jochen Ruetz

GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board


Conference Call Participants


* Andreas Wolf

Warburg Research GmbH - Research Analyst

* Dustin Mildner

Pareto Securities, Research Division - Analyst




Jochen Ruetz, GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board [1]


Ladies and gentlemen welcome to our Q3 call from Stuttgart. I hope you're all doing fine. We have a lot of calls today, I learned, a lot of companies reporting. So let's jump into the presentation, which is available online, while you're looking, or it is available on our website, or hopefully, it has been sent to you. So you should have it in front of you.

Let's directly jump to Slide #2 and look at the highlights for the first 9 months. And let's start bullet point by bullet point what has happened in the first 9 months of this year.

Client and sector diversification has continued. Client, meaning our top-2 clients versus all other clients, and sector, meaning our banking, insurance and other industry sector, but we will see those numbers coming up later.

We had a revenue growth in our non-top 2 clients of 23%. That was quite outstanding. It was 20% after 6 months. It's now 23%. Overall, revenue was up 2% to nearly EUR 316 million. We had an increase in the insurance business, and it still stands at 11% of our total revenues. And at the same time, we see a pickup in the cloud business, which I will comment on later on a separate slide, which now stands for 6% of our revenues.

Adjusted EBITDA, including all IFRS 16 effects, is up 21%. The expected burdens from restructuring and utilization -- underutilization have stabilized. We will come -- look at that later. And our 2019 guidance is unchanged.

Okay. Let's move forward. Look at Slide #3. Here are the figures in numbers. Revenue at EUR 316 million, as indicated, 2% up. If we exclude our biggest acquisition of the last 12 months, which was V-NEO in Canada, and AXOOM, a very small acquisition we've done this quarter in Germany, revenue is down 2%, mainly due to our top-2 clients.

Looking at EBITDA. The adjusted -- our nonadjusted it's up heavily 21% and 15%, but this is influenced by IFRS 16 effects of nearly EUR 9.4 million. If I would take that out, the EBITDA adjusted is down 12% compared to last year.

The EBT is best comparable to 2018 because all IFRS 16 effects are more or less cleared out. And there, we are down EUR 27 million. But the EBT, and that's the last bullet point on the right, is burdened this year by restructuring charges of EUR 3.5 million, which is nearly EUR 2.9 million more than in the year before. We have currency effects again, but they are more or less in line with previous years. So there is no gap to 2018. And we have underutilization -- or let's say, we had underutilization in the first half worth EUR 1.4 million compared to 2018. We didn't have a further underutilization in the third quarter. So that has stabilized.

If you take out all these 3 effects, the EBT would be more or less in line with previous year's numbers.

The net income is a bit lower, mainly because of a more normalized tax rate. Coming to that later, too.

So let's move forward to Slide #4 and look at the quarter in detail. On the left side, we see the revenue, and we now compare the EUR 104.9 million in Q3 to EUR 97.9 million we had a year ago. So we're up 7% in revenues quarter-over-quarter. If we take out V-NEO and the AXOOM acquisition, it would be an increase of 4%. If we include everything, it's an increase of 7%. So we have a significant pickup on the revenue side. It helped a lot. And when you look at the quarters, we're more stable in 2019 than '18. It helps a lot that our downturn in the top-2 clients is better manageable than it was a year ago. It was more erratic in 2018 than '19.

Looking at the earnings side. Of course, we have the IFRS 16 effects inside. But as commented in the call 3 months ago, we will see a stronger second half year than the first half year, a pickup on the earnings side, and this now has started in Q3, and it will continue in Q4, as we already stated 3 and 6 months ago.

IFRS 16 details, you see here the numbers per quarter are on a slide in the appendix, on Slide 20, if you want to number crunch into that lovely topic of IFRS 16, there is a detailed slide on those effects.

Okay. Let's move forward, Slide #5, and look at the business segments of GFT. And again, we have 2 slides, 5 and 6, comparing it with a different approach.

On to Slide #5. It's the overall development. Let's start with Americas and U.K. Here, we do see that M&A effects are growing the revenue. This is mainly our Canadian business of V-NEO, which we acquired a year ago, while organic effects are negative, minus 7%, due to the top-2 clients in that market.

Looking at Continental Europe, no M&A, but we have a reduction on the organic side of 2%. Again, this is linked to the top 2 clients, and we will go in details on the next slide.

On FX, we do see a pickup because of FX effect. This is mostly related to weakening currencies on the Americas side. Not dollar, but pesos and Brazilian real.

Let's move forward to Slide #6, which is the same numbers as we have seen before, but we now differentiate between top-2 clients and all other clients per business segment, so per region.

Let's start with the first bullet point below the decrease in revenue with the top-2 clients is 26% in total. We see 33% in Americas and U.K. and 19% in Continental Europe, overall 26% compared to last year. And this is in line with what we have been expecting, although Germany was a bit surprisingly fast in the first quarter, which led to the underutilization and part of the restructuring. But overall, for 9 months, we're now pretty much where we expected to be with the top-2 clients. Top 2, again, being Deutsche Bank and Barclays. In '19, it is nearly 99.5%, Deutsche Bank.

Looking at all other clients, we do see an increase of 23%. Looking at the segments in detail. Americas and U.K., increase of 47% with all other clients. Very strong. Of course, V-NEO was helping here. The V-NEO acquisition is inside. If I exclude V-NEO, that market has been growing organically by 32% with all other clients.

Looking at Continental Europe, we're up 7%. There's no V-NEO effect, so it's all organic. And this has been picking up over the quarters, as you see in the lower bullet point, the other clients' growth in the first quarter was still negative, second quarter, plus 2%, and now we stand at plus 7%. So it has improved throughout 2019.

Main growth drivers in the markets, U.S., Americas and U.K. is U.K. and U.S. combined by 20%. We see strong growth in Brazil of more than 40% and more than 90% in Mexico.

Looking at Continental Europe, other clients' strongest growth is currently in France, of course, where we started the company this year, and we are working on a Guidewire project, then Germany and Italy. So we do see growth broad.

Client concentration, maybe another remark on that, has significantly improved 9 months ago -- 12 months ago, sorry. For the first 9 months of '18, it was 41%. Revenue with the top-2 clients after 9 months of this year, it's 30%. So from 41%, we reduced to 30%, and we compensated that reduction by growth in all other clients.

Let's move forward, Slide #7, a bit of a quality slide on the revenue development. And we are seeing that growth is coming from our exponential technologies, which you see on the right side, they are named and how we believe they will grow this year. Roughly 30% of our revenue should come from those exponential technologies with public cloud. So the classic AWS, Amazon, GCP Google, or Azure from Microsoft leading the pack.

On the left side, you see a graph on how the cloud business was evolving in 2019, and we can say that today, we nearly reached our yearly target. I think we started saying at the beginning of the year we want to go to EUR 20 million in public cloud business. We're now at EUR 18 million. So we will exceed that number, and we see the dynamics in that market continuing.

Going forward to Slide #8, which is the same view, again business segments, but now for profitability. EBITDA adjusted and EBITDA, hard to compare because of all of those IFRS 16 effects. It will get better next year when we have IFRS 16 also in the comparing year. Therefore, I focus, again, like in the previous calls, on the EBT because there is no IFRS 16 effect on the EBT side.

Looking at Americas and U.K. We are down mainly because of the top-2 clients that are reducing, and this leads to compensation effects. We gained business with other clients, but at higher sales cost. I'll come back to that argument in a second.

Continental Europe, more stable. Again, here, we have the restructuring costs mostly inside in Germany and Spain and the underutilization. So that was the burden on the Continental Europe side. When it comes to others, we're allocating less cost to our countries this year than last year. That's why it is below previous year's numbers.

Now when we combine the totals on the EBT side, nearly EUR 17 million of EBT a year ago, and this year, EUR 12.3 million. The gap is mostly explained by the delta in restructure cost, the delta in underutilization. They, combined, stand for EUR 4.3 million. And then the third effect is the higher sales costs that we see and we have to carry when we compensate the loss of revenue with the top-2 clients.

So we reduced the business mainly with Deutsche Bank by roughly EUR 34 million in the last 9 months. We compensated by gaining business with new clients, but the sales efficiency on the new clients is not as good as it was with the big, big account of Deutsche Bank. Here, we lose a margin of roughly 4% sales efficiency on those EUR 34 million, and that stands by 9 months for EUR 1.4 million. While restructure and underutilization should be one-offs and reduce in next year, the sales delta will remain. We can only outgrow that gap by growth in top line. I think I'm repeating this argument in every call, right? Still, I have to repeat it because it's something that will stay.

Let's move forward, Slide #9, revenue breakdown by countries. While it's easy to say all the negative countries, which is U.K., U.S. and Germany, are influenced by Deutsche Bank, our top-2 clients, their reduction there cannot be compensated by growth in the other clients, although the growth in the other clients is heavy. These are, therefore, negative. The last big client, Deutsche Bank, is in Spain, but there, we are flat versus 2018. And therefore, overall, Spain is flat, too at the moment. Our biggest client there, Banco Sabadell, is a bit reducing and all other clients are growing. So Spain development plus/minus 0.

And now let's add Switzerland. Switzerland is a story of its own. I think I've been saying this in the last 3 calls already. Our Avaloq business currently does not see any major Avaloq implementations and therefore, we are hit on the revenue side. We're now 33% below previous year's numbers. And we will -- this will not change fast as we don't currently have a major pipeline for new Avaloq projects. So we are stabilizing Switzerland, but there will be no fast rebound.

Now all other countries, starting in Brazil, Mexico, Canada, France, show heavy growth rates. They are not infected by the top 2 reductions. And therefore, here, we do see the positive effects of the growth in our exponential technologies, [or] mainly for Canada and France, the Guidewire growth that we are experiencing in insurance clients at the moment.

All right. Moving forward to Slide #10. Quite a fast one, 30 biggest clients versus 9 months of 2018. We have 8 new entries, and we always do this little blue box around those client names. On the capital markets side, we have cetip inside. So that is a client outside U.S. and U.K. because that's the Brazilian stock exchange, which made it to the list now, and we nearly doubled the revenue with that client in 2019 so far.

On retail banking side, I think Crédit Agricole, which is the Italian Crédit Agricole, and was on the list already the last 2 quarters. Standard Chartered is new to the list. That is a client we serve in Asia. So the client, the project is located in Hong Kong, and we are supporting Standard Chartered on building a digital -- their digital banking platform for the Asian market. Very interesting, very attractive project. We are nearshoring from Poland and partially shipping people to Hong Kong to deliver on-site, and this will continue. So Standard Chartered is on the list here as a retail banking client.

On insurance, I think La Macif was there already last quarter. This is our biggest Guidewire implementation at the moment, located in France. We have Industrielle Alliance, which is a V-NEO client. They just came to the list via the V-NEO acquisition. And Sulamérica is a client that is heavily growing in Brazil at the moment and have therefore made it to the list, too.

And last but not least, industry and others. I think we've been discussing Google here in the previous calls already. They're still on the list. They are now at more than EUR 3 million. We serve Google and partially we serve banking clients through Google. So that's a mixed bag when Google is here. Sometimes it is directly to Google, sometimes through Google.

And last but not least, for the industry business, Trumpf is on the list here after the little acquisition we've done in Q3, and we see revenues picking up heavily. It's more than EUR 2 million for 9 months. So Trumpf made it to our top 30 list as well.

A last remark on the bottom right, banking now stands for 80% of our revenue. Insurance is at 11%. That is unchanged compared to a quarter ago, and industry and others are at 9%. I think that was 8% a quarter ago. So we picked up 1 percentage point for industry and others.

Looking forward, P&L, just some short comments. The third bullet point of focus is on the topic of personnel cost and purchase services combined. And if you combine them and eliminate restructure and underutilization. We do see that we have reduced productivity for those -- for this cost base by 1% to 79%. It used to be 78%. Of course, a lower margin has to be explained somewhere. And here is part of the also. And also this includes part of the higher sales cost because we need salespeople to do these extra sales efforts. And therefore, it is reflected in the line, personnel expenses. But it's not 10% higher cost, you have to combine it with the purchased services and ideally take out the one-offs for restructuring and underutilization.

There's a lot of IFRS 16 going on, right, in operating expenses. Costs go down, while at the same time, cost are moved to depreciation, but I think we commented on this a couple of times already. It's just a move. And therefore, EBITDA is far harder to compare in this year versus '18 than it will be next year.

[May] the tax rate, it stood at 18% after 9 months. Last year, it was 2%, very low at the end of last year, it stood at 12%. So that was a more normal number, still affected by previous year effects. This year, we are expecting the tax rate to be between 14% and 16% at the end of the year. So it will pick up from 12% in '18 full year to 14% to 16% in '19. The main reason, less extraordinary effects coming from previous years.

As we move forward, cash flow analysis, well you know how we build it. As always, I focus on the operating cash flow and at EUR 22.3 million, we were very happy with that number. That was a good cash flow after 9 months comparing to a year ago, back then, it was plus EUR 15 million. So obviously, working capital was in a good position at the end of September of 2019.

All right. Looking forward, Slide #13, another fast one, balance sheet, as our balance sheet has no fundamental changes to it. And the only real change is IFRS 16, which is the main effect compared to the end of 2018. So you see them commented on the left and the right. They're appearing everywhere. If there are questions, I'm happy to answer. If not, we will have to live with this IFRS 16 for the time being.

Go forward to Slide #14, employees by country. We have made it. We are above 5,000 again, which shows, we believe, in growth in the future. 5,170 people, 72 coming from AXOOM acquisition, so that was inorganic, while all others were direct hires. Biggest growth we see in Brazil. And we saw that the market there is growing by more than 40%. Therefore, we need to hire people there. We see a bit of growth in Spain, and we see growth in Poland. So all this combined leads to us reaching nearly 5,200 FTEs at the end of September this year.

Let's move forward to the, more or less, last slide, the outlook for 2019. Very important, guidance for the year is unchanged and confirmed. So all numbers are unchanged.

Above, revenue side, well, as indicated, top-2 clients will burden us by roughly 30% this year, maybe it's a notch less, but roughly 30%, all -- sorry, the Deutsche -- the top-2 clients, will burden us about 30%. All other clients are going to grow by more than 20%. We already saw 23%, so we are well on track for that. This means, for Q4, we envision -- well, probably it's going to be even above EUR 110 million, which would mean that the EUR 420 million currently are conservative. We're more looking into EUR 426 million, EUR 427 million on the revenue side. Of course, AXOOM is also helping there, the company we acquired this quarter, which would contribute roughly EUR 1.5 million in the last quarter.

On the earnings side, while we have the burden from the restructuring, we had the underutilization. The restructuring for Q4 will not be a major topic. It will be another EUR 700,000 but that is quite comparable to last year. We had EUR 500,000 in 2018 fourth quarter. So this will not drive the fourth quarter. However, as always, what will the banks do in December? It's always a bit of a question mark, MTA is the magic term for that when the bank send home all their service providers for a couple of days or maybe even a week or 2. This is not yet 100% clear, but we're quite optimistic to reach our revenue and earnings target. Our focus for Q4 is earnings reach the EUR 18 million of EBT. This is what we're going to focus on.

And let's use the very last Slide 16, just for a bit of outlook. The slide itself and numbers are completely unchanged versus last time when we looked at it. And it is, again, showing the top 2 and the other clients' development. We envision 23% growth in all other clients. And these 23% are roughly 4% to 5% coming from V-NEO, 18% to 19% coming from new organic growth at GFT. So a strong development, 18% to 19%. That is by far higher than we had in the year before. It was 11 or 12 percentage. And of course, we would like to continue down that route. And let's see what our budget, which we are currently building internally, brings. What we can say is the top-2 clients for '20, for sure, will show another decline. We don't know yet how big it is, budgeting phase just started. But there will be another relevant reduction on the top-2 side versus 2019. And there will be, again, a relevant increase in all other clients. For sure, our client structure helps us. The top-2 clients are not that dominant anymore as they used to be, so I think our analyst consensus currently foresees roughly EUR 435 million, EUR 440 million of revenues, which is the number that, from today's perspective, makes a lot of sense to us as well. Again, we will budget, and we will give final guidance. Of course, as always, in the beginning of March. But as you're going to ask me anyway, I'm going to -- I just wanted to give a bit of a heads up already.

So 2020, we believe, and you saw it in the FTE number, there will be a stronger overall top line growth than we have seen or we will see this year.

All right. That's the presentation. The appendix is there for the number crunching. If there are questions on all of the slides, please shoot.


Questions and Answers


Operator [1]


(Operator Instructions) The first question comes from the line of Andreas Wolf of Warburg Research.


Andreas Wolf, Warburg Research GmbH - Research Analyst [2]


It's Andreas Wolf, Warburg Research. A couple of questions from my side. So obviously, the sequential earnings developing is quite good. The restructuring seems to be done in major parts. Is it the right assumption to look at your realignment that it's basically done and we should see the current personnel expense run rate and other costs as the level to basically plan upon going forward?

The second question is on growth, growth outside the top 2 clients. Is it also right to assume that it's as you alluded to during your presentation, mainly driven by exponential technologies? Or what are the topics here that are driving this very dynamic growth?

And also regarding top-2 clients? That would be my third question. So obviously, Deutsche has a new CIO, who came from SAP, who already stated in interviews that he would prefer to do more in-house. So I'm just curious what kind of implications you derive from your business. And maybe you could combine your answer with a general view on, let's say, what might be the revenue development for the top-2 clients for the next 1 or 2 years, that would be very helpful.


Jochen Ruetz, GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board [3]


Good morning, first of all. Yes, restructured done, question mark. Well, our restructure happened while we were hiring people. So this sounds a bit strange, and some participants in the press have a hard time writing about this. Our issue here is that we are reducing revenues with top-2 clients. And some of the people that we get back with the top-2 clients have a skill set or experience that is not easy to utilize in other clients. And therefore, part of the restructuring was a quality restructuring. We need people, but a different skill than what is returning to our staffing organizations. And therefore, no, restructuring might not be fully done. It will depend on what we get back from our big clients, our top-2 clients, in skill set and what we can easily reuse. And therefore, it might revisit us, to a lower extent, we hope it to be less of a surprise as it was in 2019, but the restructure cost might continue revisiting us as long as see the top-2 clients declining.

Besides that, you're right, personnel costs should develop normally in line with average salary increases, which we're usually very good at compensating by managing our permits and PSUs.

Growth topics, well, you already gave them, right? They were on the slide. It is the exponential technologies that are driving growth, and the cloud topic will continue growing for next year. We will probably, again, see roughly a doubling of that number, maybe not exactly. But I believe, in fact my CEO would look at me now, she would say, "Easily double." I'm the CFO, so I will say less. We are ambitious about the cloud business for 2020. And the other exponential technologies as well, [the Ki], blockchain, all stuff that is only kicking off. And there's another technology we don't call as exponential, but that is also driving growth, which is implementing the standard product Guidewire into insurance companies. And we see that trend continuing, too, as Guidewire is pretty strong on the Anglo-Saxon markets. They are now hitting Continental Europe. It doesn't mean it must be '20 or '21, and the big, big projects start, but the German insurance market is a target market for Guidewire as well. We are now doing business mainly in France. Funny enough, they started in France, not in Germany, but we will see more projects for Guidewire.

And now the top 2 question, right, which I tried to avoid by already giving some insight. You're right, Bernd Leukert, the CIO of Deutsche Bank -- well, the Head of Technology and Innovation, he stated we want to in-source more people, up to 70% in-house and only 30% out of house. This, combined with the savings period that Deutsche on top is doing, right, say purely saving on IT cost, is not the ideal scenario for the coming years. And that's why I already indicated that we will see another relevant reduction in the top-2 clients. And this will be seen by all vendors because internalizing or saving both means less goes to vendors. And therefore, we believe there will be a reduction. It will not be as strong as we see it in 2019. Maybe it's a bit more like what we have seen between '18 and '19 where the Deutsche impact was EUR 25 million to EUR 30 million.

But that's just as a rough number to end the big guidance discussion on Deutsche. We do not know yet. Please give us the time to discuss with the client to give -- to receive their guidance for the next year. And then the real guidance for that figure will come in March. And that is the right time for guiding. Today, we're guessing, right? Guiding and guessing, there is a quality difference, which I would like to point out.

And that's it. All other clients, we believe we will continue growing. It will be somewhere between the 11% we saw in 2018, the nearly 20% we're seeing today, somewhere in that range, we will probably see the number in the end. Hopefully, on the upper side. It will depend on the next months how our pipeline is building and what we can really envision for 2020. I hope that helped. Are there more questions?


Operator [4]


(Operator Instructions) The next question comes from the line of Dustin Mildner of Pareto Securities.


Dustin Mildner, Pareto Securities, Research Division - Analyst [5]


And thank you for the heads-up on revenues, which -- yes, what you think makes sense for 2020. My question basically relates to V-NEO. And if I have calculated it correctly, it looks like you had another very, very strong quarter as there should have been only 1 month consolidated, if I recall it correctly.

Maybe you can give us -- I might have missed that part in the conference call, so I'm sorry if you already talked about it, but maybe you can give us an update on how the Guidewire, in general, how the environment looks and how the implementation in Europe proceeds, that would be very helpful.


Jochen Ruetz, GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board [6]


Yes. Happy to do so. Yes, on V-NEO, it was consolidated from August 2018. So it was in Q3 '18 for 2 months, not for 1 month, for 2 months. Only July was missing when we...


Dustin Mildner, Pareto Securities, Research Division - Analyst [7]


No, I meant in 2019, it should have been only 1 month. So...


Jochen Ruetz, GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board [8]


Yes, you're right. But when we compare 9 months' figures, right? We have now 9 months of V-NEO and last year it was only 2 months. So that's the comparing figures for 9 months of the year.

Guidewire is doing well. We do see -- we still see new projects in the Canadian side. So in our -- what we initially bought, right, the Canadian V-NEO company. So the Guidewire has not stopped in their core markets. It is continuing. Not everybody has yet moved to a new more forward-looking digital platform. And therefore, there's still market share to gain for Guidewire. At the same time, well, we would love to do and do more in Europe at the moment. The question is the resources and the experts. You do need some Guidewire experts. And we're currently building the team. We're building it in France around the client that we're currently serving. We're building a hub in Poland, with Guidewire nearshore expertise, which then can be used for any European market as long as we can support them [English speaking], and we're also building a small practice in Spain. And therefore, we are already using our classic leverage of nearshore to combine it with the future Guidewire business.

Today, it's mainly 1 client and smaller other things in Europe for Guidewire. But we believe this will kick off. It is a major decision. And I think we indicated the numbers for Guidewire at La Macif, only our share would be roughly EUR 50 million. And the total investment is probably 3 or 4x that amount for the insurance company. It's not an easy decision for an insurance company to spend that amount into a new platform. Once you do it, you have to go all the way. Often, it is done piece by piece, so phase by phase. This client in France has chosen to go all the way with all phases at once. And therefore, it's very big in the first place. Usually, when you do all the phases one after the other, you reach the same number. And this is what's going to happen in Europe, but we don't see many Guidewire wins yet in the market. We believe in France, we could easily do a second client. Starting next year, somewhere over time, maybe only 21. It depends a bit on how fast we can build the team. So it is also a resource-driven revenue stream that we have here. Currently, the number of people available in the European market with Guidewire expertise is limiting growth as well. On the other side, clients, not all clients, are yet ready to jump.


Dustin Mildner, Pareto Securities, Research Division - Analyst [9]


Okay. And just a quick follow-up. Your share in the account was 1-5 or EUR 15 million?


Jochen Ruetz, GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board [10]


Our share in -- EUR 50 million, 5-0, over 4 years, so it's quite a while. But when you look at the France number after 9 months, this is purely that 1 client and another quarter to come. So it will be roughly EUR 10 million this year. Maybe EUR 9 million. So you see the share of the year already there.


Operator [11]


(Operator Instructions) And there are no questions at this time.


Jochen Ruetz, GFT Technologies SE - CFO, MD, Member of Executive Board & Member of the Administrative Board [12]


Looks like we've covered it all. Thank you, everybody, for joining. As we said, it's a busy day. If there are more questions after the call, please, as always, come our way. If not, maybe we meet in one of the analyst conferences in the next weeks. Eigenkapitalforum, for example. Thank you very much for joining and [hear] you soon. Goodbye.