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Edited Transcript of HDFCBANK.NSE earnings conference call or presentation 19-Oct-19 11:30am GMT

Q2 2020 HDFC Bank Ltd Earnings Call

Mumbai Oct 24, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of HDFC Bank Ltd earnings conference call or presentation Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 11:30:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Jimmy M. Tata

HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer

* Sashidhar Jagdishan

HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance

* Srinivasan Vaidyanathan

HDFC Bank Limited - CFO

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Conference Call Participants

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* Bunty Chawla

IDBI Capital Markets & Securities Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Hiral Desai

Anived Portfolio Managers Pvt. Ltd - Portfolio Manager

* Jai Mundhra

Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Kunal Shah

Edelweiss Securities Ltd., Research Division - Associate Director

* Mahrukh Adajania

IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Director

* Manish Ostwal

Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst

* Nitin Kumar Aggarwal

Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst

* Pavan Ahluwalia

Laburnum Capital Advisors Private Limited - MD & Director

* Rahul M. Jain

Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director

* Ravi Purohit;Securities Investment Mgmt. Pvt. Ltd.;Chief Investment Officer

* Udit Gadia;Khazanah Nasional;Assistant Vice President

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Presentation

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Operator [1]

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Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to the HDFC Bank Q2 FY '20 Earnings Conference call on the financial results presented by Mr. Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, Chief Financial Officer. (Operator Instructions) Please note that this conference is being recorded.

I now hand the conference over to Mr. Srinivasan Vaidyanathan. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [2]

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Okay. Thank you. I appreciate the participants calling in today. We'll get to the results highlights for the quarter and also the half year ended September 30, 2019.

Let's start with the net revenues. Net revenues grew by 21.1%, driven by advances growth of 19.5% and deposit growth of 22.6% and other income growth of 39.2%.

Getting to the details of the underneath this. Net interest income for the quarter was INR 13,515 crore. The margin remained at historical range of 4.2%.

The bank's average liquidity coverage ratio for the quarter was at 133%. The current ALCO strategy is to maintain a stronger-than-usual liquidity position to [capital loan] demand in the quarters to come. The consequent impact to NIM was around 10 to 15 basis points. Adjusted for the same, the core NIM would be around 4.3%.

The bank offset the drag by monetizing the investments in the form of trading gains. If we had reduced the LCR to 115%, the net interest income would have grown approximately by 19%. Now getting to the details of other income.

Fees and commission income, constituting 72.5% of other income grew by 23% over the previous year to reach INR 4,054 crore, of which retail constitutes approximately 91% and wholesale constitutes 9%.

Mutual funds income remained impacted by changes in regulations that came in the preceding quarters. Excluding income from mutual funds, total fee and commission grew by 26.4% over the corresponding quarter of the previous year.

CapEx and derivatives income grew by 31.4% over the previous year to reach INR 552 crore. The growth was primarily granular in nature, being driven by retail customers who contributed around 2/3 of the total.

Trading income was INR 481 crore. As mentioned before, this refers to the current ALCO strategy of monetizing some portion of the gain from excess liquidity investments. Other miscellaneous income, including the recoveries was INR 502 crore.

Now moving to operating expenses. Expenses for the quarter were INR 7,406 crores, an increase of 17.6% over the corresponding quarter of the previous year.

Year-on-year, we added 489 branches. 184 branches were added during the quarter. Year-on-year, we added 496 ATMs and 206 cash deposit cum withdrawal machines.

The staff count also increased by 16,301 during the last 12 months, and that included 7,054 added during the quarter.

Cost-to-income ratio for the quarter ended September 30, 2019, was 38.8% as against 39.9% for the corresponding quarter ended September 30, 2018.

Moving to PPOP. Pre-provision operating profit grew by 23.4% from INR 9,480 crore in the quarter ended September 30, 2018, to INR 11,698 crore in the current quarter.

Now moving to asset quality. GNPA ratio was at 1.38% of gross advances as on September 30, 2019, as against 1.4% as on June 30, 2019, and 1.33% as on September 30, 2018.

GNPA ratio as on September 30, 2018, excluding NPAs in the agricultural segment, was 1.2% in the current -- 1.2% in the current quarter as well as June quarter and 1.1% in the September quarter of the previous year.

Annualized cost slippage ratio during the current September quarter was at 1.7% as against 2% in the June quarter and 1.8% in the previous September quarter.

The coverage ratio at 70% and net NPA at 0.4% were stable across the current and prior quarter as well as previous year comparable period.

The bank continued to hold floating provisions of INR 1,451 crore as on September 30, 2019. Total provisions comprising specific general floating provisions were 114% of the gross nonperforming loans as on September 30, 2019.

Now getting to the details of the provision. Total provisions were INR 2,701 crore for the current September quarter as against INR 2,614 crores during the June quarter and INR 1,820 crore for the September quarter in the previous year.

Specific loan loss provisions were INR 2,038 crore for the current September quarter as against INR 2,246 crores during the June quarter and INR 1,573 crore for the September quarter in the previous year.

In addition, given the current macro environment and in addition to -- in order to make the balance sheet more resilient, the bank has made contingent and general provisions.

Total contingent and general provisions amounted to INR 663 crore for the current September quarter as against INR 367 crore in the June quarter and INR 247 crore in the September quarter in the previous year.

Total credit cost ratio, which includes general and contingent provision was 1.19% for the current September quarter as against 1.4% for the June quarter and 0.96% for the September quarter in the previous year.

The core credit cost ratio represented by specific loan loss provisions were 0.9% of advances for the current September quarter as against 1.07% for the June quarter and 0.83% for the September quarter in the previous year.

Excluding agri, the ratio was 0.92%, 0.93% and 0.82% for the respective quarters. As you are aware, recoveries are recorded as miscellaneous income.

Therefore, core credit cost ratio, net of recoveries, was 0.68% as compared to 0.88% in the quarter ending June 30, 2019 and 0.66% in the quarter ending September 30, 2018.

Now getting on to profit before tax for the quarter ended September 30, 2019 was up 17.5% to INR 8,997 crore.

Core profit before tax that is PBT, excluding contingent and general provisions grew by approximately INR 1,753 crores or 22.2%. During the quarter, the results incorporated the impact of new tax rate. Year-to-date impact of reduced tax rate was approximately INR 1,650 crore. The deferred tax asset was reassessed at the current tax rate and approximately INR 1,200 crore was written down, representing the full impact of the change in tax rate.

This resulted in a net tax benefit of approximately INR 450 crore in the quarter. Net profit for the quarter grew by 26.8% to INR 6,345 crore. Net profit for the half year ended September 30, 2019, was INR 11,913 crore, up by 24% over the corresponding half year ended September 30, 2018.

Some balance sheet items now. The bank's balance sheet size as on September 30, 2019, was 13,25,072 crore as against 11,69,898 crore as of September 30, 2018, an increase in size, overall size of 13.3%.

Total deposits as of September 30, 2019 number amounted to INR 10,21,615 crore, an increase of 22.6% over the September 30, 2018, and 7% over June 30, 2019.

Retail, which constituted 77% of total deposits increased by 24% over the previous year as a result of our focus on granular deposits. CASA deposits at INR 4,01,235 crore grew by 14.7%, with savings account deposits at INR 2,64,445 crore, and current account deposits at INR 1,36,791 crore.

Time deposits at INR 6,20,380 crore grew by 28.3% over previous year. CASA deposits comprised 39.3% of total deposits as on September 30, 2019.

Total advances as of September 30, 2019, were INR 8,96,984 crores, an increase of 19.5% over September 30, 2018, and 8.1% over June 30, 2019.

Advances to the vehicle loan segment, which has seen continued moderation in sales volumes constituted 17% of total advances and grew by 2.3% over previous year.

Advances ex vehicle segment grew by 23.8% over the previous year.

Moving on to CapEx. With regards to capital adequacy, the total capital adequacy ratio as per Basel III guidelines stood at 17.5% as against the regulatory requirement of 11.075%. June capital adequacy ratio was 16.9% and September of previous year was at 17.1%.

Tier 1 capital adequacy ratio was 16.2% in the September -- in the current September quarter as compared to 15.6% in the June quarter.

The reduction in risk [weights] of certain retail loans had an impact of around 80 to 90 basis points -- beneficial impact of 80 to 90 basis points on the capital adequacy ratio.

CET1 capital stood at 15.3% as of September 30, 2019 compared to 14.7% as on September 30, 2018.

Some business updates. During the year, we added 211 banking outlets, taking our total network to 5,314 banking outlets. 52% of the branches are in semi-urban and rural areas.

As of September 30, 2019, we have signed up approximately 1 lakh Common Service Centers Village Level Entrepreneurs, of which 32,242 are onboarded as business facilitators. Of these, around 40% are actively sourcing now.

Year-to-date, we have acquired 3.2 million new liability relationships, an increase of 53% over the corresponding period of prior year, driven through our strategy of increasing branches and semi-urban and rural momentum.

As on September 30, 2018, we have 10 million relationship-managed customers, of which 6 million are virtually managed.

As on September 30, 2019, we have 13.3 million credit card base and 1.3 million merchant acceptance points.

In conclusion [of remark], it is [better] to say that our people have raised to the occasion to keep great engagement with our existing customers, bring in some of those new relationships, all within our standard credit and process architecture that has resulted in healthy advances growth of 19.5% and deposits growth of 22.6%. Net revenues growth of 21.1%. Core net interest margin of 4.2% and adjusted for LCR, 4.3%. Cost-to-income at 38.8%, robust PPOP growth of 23.4%; stable credit quality, with current quarter GNPA of 1.38% and core credit cost ratio of 90 basis points and 68 basis points net of recoveries. Profit after tax growth of 26.8%.

With that, operator, we can open it up for questions.

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Questions and Answers

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Operator [1]

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(Operator Instructions) The first question is from the line of Mahrukh Adajania from IDFC Securities.

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Mahrukh Adajania, IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Director [2]

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Just a few questions. Firstly, if you could explain the rules around the netting of deposits from borrower accounts. That's one. Also, if you would be in a position to comment on the Altico case, what's being reported in the newspapers.

And also, in terms of your exposure to accounts that have been downgraded in the last 4 to 5 months, would you be in a position to quantify your exposure to these accounts, including HFCs, NBFCs and other accounts?

And also, if you could share the number of slippage for the quarter in rupees?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [3]

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I'll take the last one first. The core slippage is INR 3,714 crores. And one other thing before Jimmy jumps in, which is, you asked about netting deposits to advances. As a reporting -- you're talking about reporting netting of -- or obviously...

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Mahrukh Adajania, IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Director [4]

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No, no, no, as in that there are banks and even on an HFC call, we were told that if a borrower has taken a loan from you and he also maintains a deposit with you, then you could net-off those deposits. So what are the rules around netting-off those deposits?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [5]

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Hi. Good evening, everyone. This is Jimmy. I'll take the question on Altico first. As everyone knows, it is our policy not to comment on individual exposures. That said, I would add that a lot of what has found its way into the press is based on what may have been heard by the press from various parties other than ourselves because it's the same policy. We don't necessarily talk.

A fair amount of that information is not perfectly accurate and should not be therefore considered as such. Beyond that, all I can say is the bank had an exposure. The bank had specific security and the bank was able to set up that specific security.

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Mahrukh Adajania, IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Director [6]

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Okay. And what would be the rules around -- general rules around netting of deposits, you need a specific lien or if a borrower has a loan and a deposit with you, could you net it off?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [7]

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There are various rules, specific to individual contracts as well as specific to general banking practice, rules and laws around these subjects. So of course, there are situations where you create a specific charge or liens or pledge or hypothecation over various assets, including financial assets. And there are obviously the existing laws, which we all know, regarding general lien and [set-off] that are available to banks and other lenders as well. So that goes by the law of the land and we also do go by the law of the land.

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Mahrukh Adajania, IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Director [8]

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Okay. So what's the -- sorry, I'm not aware of the law, that's why I'm asking.

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [9]

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Mahrukh, it might be a little difficult to discuss it at this point, but because it's an academic subject in that sense, it's not (inaudible).

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Mahrukh Adajania, IDFC Securities Limited, Research Division - Director [10]

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Got it. And any quantification of any watch list that you might have or your exposure to the accounts downgraded over the last 4, 5 months?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [11]

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Things are quite stable. You saw in some of those ratios that we...

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [12]

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You will see it in the numbers and the ratios that have -- things are quite stable.

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Operator [13]

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The next question is from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang.

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Manish Ostwal, Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst [14]

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My question on the HDB Financial specific. The company has adopted best NPA recognition practice during the quarter. And so can you -- look at the scheme what are the changes we have done in -- during the quarter?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [15]

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A couple of things, right. One is, which normally banks do, but finance companies do not do, NBFCs do not do. But our HDBFS opted to get to more stringent practices, which is one. First thing is, daily recognition. It is not about recognizing delinquency or NPA at a point in time on the last day of the month, but on a daily basis, what it is. So that was one thing.

And the second aspect was about what we call the sticky, which is related borrowings of the related facility from the same borrower. So if a borrower at 2 facilities outstanding, one is delinquent and the other standard, we had to tag them along. So it is to getting that connected, or sticky, added to the one that is nonperforming to make it for closing.

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Manish Ostwal, Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst [16]

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Sure, sir. Secondly, sir, if we exclude this change impact...

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [17]

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One more thing is that these things will get upgraded only when all of these outstandings are becoming current. 0 [DTA].

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Manish Ostwal, Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst [18]

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The second point I have, if we exclude this impact of the changes of NPA recognition, still the asset quality, I mean, growth NPA has increased from June level to September quarter. So can you share some insight about the -- which are the segments, geography or the customer segment pressure -- seeing an asset quality pressure in the particular company, sir, HDB Financial.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [19]

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There is only one thing to mention on this, which is the commercial vehicles, which as you would know, as our credit would remind us, the relatable value on commercial vehicles in the country is pretty high. And anybody who's going through the kind of a capacity utilization or the challenge utilization issues now, will bounce back to pay off the loan to get the vehicle back and get on with the business. This business over the life, right, not just over the cycle, over the life, hasn't experienced, will not experience more than 10 to 13 basis points of experience, which is pretty low. But we'll -- given the times, we'll go through that NPA cycle and we'll come back on. That is the significant cause of the change, one quarter to another.

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Manish Ostwal, Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst [20]

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Any plan to lift the HDB Financial next 1 year, sir?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [21]

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Sorry.

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Manish Ostwal, Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst [22]

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Any plan to lift the HDB Financial in next 1 year, sir?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [23]

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Well, the Board of the bank has not yet taken a decision, neither has the Board of the company is yet to take a decision. But yes, they will -- if at all there is any plan, they will sort of notify to the exchanges.

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Manish Ostwal, Nirmal Bang Securities Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Senior Research Analyst [24]

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Sure. And one data point query, interest on other balances, anything one-off? And on fee income side, is there any one-off?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [25]

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No, other than routine things, there are no one-offs to mention.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [26]

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So the payments and interest have seen a very strong growth, and that has also led to a more than decent growth in fees and income. As Srini was mentioning, the growth in the insurance business. So the earnings, the yields on the insurance business have been much better than what we have seen in the past, thanks to the product mix that we have been selling. So that has also sort of contributed a decent amount of growth, offsetting the mutual fund income degrowth.

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Operator [27]

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The next question is from the line of Kunal Shah from Edelweiss.

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Kunal Shah, Edelweiss Securities Ltd., Research Division - Associate Director [28]

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Firstly, in terms of this entire general and contingent provisioning, if you could further give more highlight in terms of last time we stepped up the provisions towards the unsecured book. So was it there this time as well? Or it was largely general? And we had provided something towards NBFCs and HFCs as well, so is there any contingent provisioning towards any of those specific sectors?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [29]

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This is the mix of wholesale, retail, all in it. They're not focused on one. But the context to give you is that, given what we see in the macro environment, to ensure that our balance sheet remains resilient at all times, there are some provisions made. They do not represent provisions for nonperforming loans. You can take it as they are precautionary and not anticipatory.

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Kunal Shah, Edelweiss Securities Ltd., Research Division - Associate Director [30]

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Yes. But in terms of the stepping up particularly on the unsecured pool, has that continued in this quarter as well? Or maybe we were largely done in terms of [inching] of the coverage on the unsecured retail credit?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [31]

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So on the unsecured part of -- as we -- if you recall, we had kept up the provisions on the nonperforming assets. The rate of provision was stepped up, as you also alluded to, to improve the coverage on the personal loan or unsecured loan portfolio. So that was a correction that was done last time. Now it carries through at a elevated level. That's the only change that happened last quarter.

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Kunal Shah, Edelweiss Securities Ltd., Research Division - Associate Director [32]

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Okay. And in terms of the behavior, either on the unsecured, last time you highlighted that maybe it's holding on pretty well. So both on the vehicle financing side, and no doubt the growth has slowed down. But any early signs of delinquencies or maybe the increasing stress, either on the vehicle on the unsecured side, we are seeing it over last 3, 4 months?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [33]

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So to quickly cover the unsecured as well as the secured portfolio behavior, I'll take the unsecured first, and let's take the biggest chunk of that, which is the personal loan book. The delinquency is fairly stable. The heartening part of this is that the early indicators that we measure on the newer portfolio, I won't say new, but the newer portfolio because we measure several months back as well, is definitely trending better. In fact, this early indicator is trending better across various portfolios. So even if you look at the business loans, which are unsecured, there again, whereas there may have been a creep in the coincidental delinquency, historically, the early indicators, once again, show that there is a reversal, if you can use that word. And one would see a better portfolio coming forward, whereas we don't want to give any guidance. But the early indicators, once again, are happening.

If you move into the secured books, where the single largest one, of course, is our auto loan book. As you are aware, given the market conditions, there has been a denominator effect in the delinquency and that denominator effect has played a large role in the delinquency numbers.

Once again, if we look at the early indicators here, they are fairly stable. And once again, if we look in addition as it would have been in the unsecured as well as in the secured books, if we look at comparatives to industry delinquency and in terms of comparatives to industry trends, we are obviously far better at this point in time.

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Kunal Shah, Edelweiss Securities Ltd., Research Division - Associate Director [34]

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Okay. And on the nonretail side, the growth, which has been there, particularly maybe even if I look at the business banking, it's been a good traction out there in this particular quarter. So how are we seeing this particular product segment to scale up over the next 12 to 18-odd months?

And on the corporate side, the growth which has come in, is it any -- maybe some particular pockets wherein we would have given it in terms of either the sectoral or are there any chunky loans, which have been given or just like the rundown was not there like Q1, and that's where we have seen this kind of a growth?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [35]

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Sure. So to take the business banking side first, we continue to have a good, healthy steady stream of business banking opportunities available to us. We continue to have better and better ability to monitor these portfolios and, therefore, also take better and wiser decisions in terms of acquiring these. So that is a good, healthy pipeline, not necessarily spiking upwards, and we don't see a trend downwards either.

Moving into the corporate segment...

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [36]

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And just to supplement what Jimmy is saying, the -- our penetration into the semi-urban and rural, the fact that we have really galvanized the distribution channels and complemented them with a good digital offering. These 2 have really aided in pushing up a lot of pipeline.

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [37]

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Yes. On the corporate side, there have been growth opportunities in various places. So again, the -- it's a good thing to report in the sense that it is not necessarily chunky. It is not isolated transactions. Of course, we do have a very large book. So there will be some large transactions in that, but it's not necessary that it has been dependent on a few large transactions.

We have had healthy growth across industries, across businesses and across ticket sizes and products as well. Some transactions, of course, will be large, but it has been across the board. There have been, I will say -- while I'm saying this, there have also been some exposures taken selectively in a few sectors like NBFCs, like power, like telecom. I want to say that all these exposures have been taken to the absolute best entities within these industries and we are confident of them.

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Operator [38]

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The next question is from the line of Nitin Aggarwal from Motilal Oswal Securities.

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [39]

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So over the recent period, you have been seeing a...

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [40]

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Come closer to the mic, please.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [41]

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Can you be a bit louder, please?

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [42]

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Branch expansion plans, the promotions, the loan growth that we're delivering amidst...

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [43]

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Nitin, we're not able to hear you. Can you be a bit louder?

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [44]

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How are you seeing the competitive intensity in different product segments?

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Operator [45]

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Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Aggarwal. Mr. Aggarwal, we're not able to hear you. Can you speak a bit louder?

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [46]

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Hello?

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Operator [47]

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Yes, sir. Please go ahead.

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [48]

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Yes, sorry. So my question is on the competitive intensity. Over the recent period, we have been seeing a very aggressive HDFC Bank, be it the branch expansion plans, the promotions that we are running, the loan growth that we're delivering amidst the slowing macro. So how are you seeing the competitive intensity in different product segments?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [49]

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The competition is also intense. It's not that we are getting it that easily. I don't want to name the banks. I think all of them are reasonably aggressive in this particular space, especially some of the larger PSU banks and some of the larger private sector banks as well. But having said that, I think we have the advantage of having a far more larger distribution, reasonably well-oiled machinery, which is sort of aided by the kind of spends that we are doing on the festive side. So that is bringing a lot more footfalls, whether it's the retail, whether it's the SME, whether it's a corporate side. The digital offering, obviously, has had the latter even more, especially the SME and the corporate side.

So the only thing I can say is, thus far, whilst there would be a pocket of exuberance because of festival some amount of pricing in certain pockets. But largely, I think competition has been pretty rational, but still very intense.

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [50]

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Okay. And secondly, you did talk about the underwriting standards that we have like revised up on the HDB. But besides stepping up the provisioning run rate, have we like tightened standards at the bank level also? And if you can give some color on the [rejection] rates and how the civil scores are moving in our new loan originations across some of the key unsecured segments?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [51]

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Yes. As I mentioned a little while ago, the early indicators are all looking up and that is reflective of various corrections, filters and policy changes made across products, across geographies, across spectrums wherever they have been required. In terms of how it has impacted you, numerically, we don't really disclose beyond what is always disclosed. But the signs are looking up. When it comes to how it is moving across [bureau bands], we have seen a good shift in terms of better income orientation, better propensity to repay, all these have improved. The bureau bands are only one amongst several inputs to us, and we do extend finance across banks. We are more cautious about the individual leverage about the individual income about the stability of income. And naturally, when it moves into a business environment, the same for the business in question. So the bureau is only one ingredient for us.

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Nitin Kumar Aggarwal, Motilal Oswal Securities Limited, Research Division - Research Analyst [52]

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Right. And lastly, on the home loan growth side, now with banks like moving out of (inaudible) pricing so -- and some of the PSU banks are priced relatively far lower than where the housing finance companies are. So do you see this can impair the ability for us to originate home loans, particularly as this monetary using continues a bit more?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [53]

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Well, frankly, I think -- as we speak, I think we continue to have a very robust origination of home loans for HDFC Limited. We are not seeing any early indicators of the price being a disadvantage for our set of customers. I think, obviously, there is a bit of a premium that customers are willing to pay for the HDFC Limited home loan product.

So thus far no such indication. We continue to see reasonably strong momentum as we have seen in the previous quarter as well.

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Operator [54]

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We'll move on to the next question, that is from the line of Rahul Jain from Goldman Sachs.

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [55]

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Three set of questions. First of all, on the asset quality bit, can you all give us the outstanding contingency provision that we are holding? So we have floating provisions of INR 1,450 crores. I'm just trying to understand how much outstanding would be there on the contingency side?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [56]

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Rahul, thanks for taking, but that number is not something that we have publicly talked about. And...

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [57]

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Okay, okay. Okay, no problems. Can I get the write-off numbers for this quarter?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [58]

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Yes. INR 1,589 crores.

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [59]

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Got it. And also, just trying to understand the GNPA as in the agri portfolio and how it would have moved versus last year?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [60]

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I said that it's part of -- GNPA in agri portfolio?

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [61]

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Yes.

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [62]

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Okay. GNPA in agri, last September was 6.06, currently, it is at 5.64.

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [63]

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Got it. And secondly, on the -- on disbursals in the auto portfolio so while the book has grown, I think, we are just flattish versus last year. Can I -- can we get some color on how disbursals would have trended in this quarter versus that in the previous years as last quarter?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [64]

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One second. Disbursals in auto?

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [65]

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Yes.

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [66]

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I don't have it readily, [Ajit], anything else?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [67]

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So, Rahul, I missed that one. Are you saying how the disbursals been in the second quarter for auto?

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [68]

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That's correct, Sashi.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [69]

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Disbursals have been reasonably strong in the second quarter. I think -- the [concrete] expectations I think, we have seen almost about 12% to 13% sequentially, the quarter 2 numbers and auto loans have been up vis-à-vis the first quarter of June. So that's pretty encouraging. And I -- we hope, we're not too sure, we hope that the festival quarter will be even better or at least as similar kind of numbers that we have clocked in the second quarter.

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Rahul M. Jain, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division - Executive Director [70]

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Got it. Just one last question, Sashi and Srini, on the salary expenses. So year-over-year, 23% increase. Was there any one-off in this quarter? And how do you see the full year playing out? I know you don't really guide upon the numbers, but just to get a sense, the salary expenses, will it stay at these levels? Or there were some one-off in this quarter?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [71]

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No, there's no one-off, as Srini did mention, 17% -- of the 23%, 17% is principally just on account of the growth in number of employee. And then the balance is on account of the increments that one has for the entire portfolio. So we do almost about 6% to 8% of wage inflation that we have been doing for the last so many years. So that's what is baked into this 23%.

So it's principally the number of employees that have gone up significantly. And as you know, we are -- this is the best time for us to invest, and we are in an investment mode.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [72]

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A small amount drop in terms of gratuity because that's the way -- this is as usual. It is not something that is one-off target.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [73]

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Yes, yes.

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Operator [74]

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The next question is from the line of Bunty Chawla from IDBI Capital.

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Bunty Chawla, IDBI Capital Markets & Securities Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [75]

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Just a few questions. One, if it is possible for you, can you share what will be the cost -- extra cost we will be bearing on these festive offers, which we are currently running?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [76]

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No, it's a forward-looking statement, we have to be -- after the program is done, we will be able to see what and how it impacts us. It is a continuous program, and it depends on how great it finishes, right?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [77]

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And in the third quarter, that will be baked into the third quarter number for sure, and you will see that.

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Operator [78]

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The next question is from the line of Pavan Ahluwalia from Laburnum Capital.

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Pavan Ahluwalia, Laburnum Capital Advisors Private Limited - MD & Director [79]

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Two questions. One, you talked about this being the best time to invest in employees. So as there's been a significant addition, could you give us a sense of where you're looking to add employees, is because you previously talked about, in fact, using technology to drive down on the cost-to-income ratio, which would consider (inaudible) obviously, it doesn't happen in the same places but it would be good to know...

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Operator [80]

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Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Ahluwalia. Sir, your voice is breaking up.

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Pavan Ahluwalia, Laburnum Capital Advisors Private Limited - MD & Director [81]

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Can you hear me now?

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Operator [82]

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Yes, please go ahead.

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Pavan Ahluwalia, Laburnum Capital Advisors Private Limited - MD & Director [83]

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So my first question, could you give us some color on where you're hiring these people because, obviously, you've talked previously about places where you're using technology to cut costs, which to an extent could mean you use the number of people necessary. So could you give us a sense of where, in fact, you're using less people and where you're using more people?

And the second question is around margins and MCLR. So we saw net margin come off a little bit this quarter, still within the range that we target. But it'd be good to get some color from you on that. I notice there was a very strong ramping up of term deposits. So it would be good if you could link that to the liability side outlook.

And given the new MCLR rules, the benchmark rules that the RBI has put out, how do you see that impacting our profitability volatility on net interest [products]?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [84]

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Okay. So on the employee front, as Srini did mention, the bank on a year-on-year basis, have added about 489 branches, okay? So you would need people for that because we believe that distribution is one of our strongest point. Probably in our earlier calls, we did sort of even give an indication that we would be opening somewhere around the 600 to 700 further distribution points in our network.

So that is where you will see the kind of employees getting more added. But in addition to that, let's face it, we are not sort of diluting our technology investments or we are not removing our focus on digitizing our processes and product offerings. The fact of the matter is, despite what you do, there is still in India, there will be an X percentage of people who would need to have -- would not be as savvy digitally as you and I are. So there would be people who need to go and source, especially on the sales side, where you need a lot of investment, a lot of people to go and get business, whether it's an asset or a liability of the cards business. There is a finite capacity of how much each one can do. When it sort of reaches the kind of a capacity, you'll need to add more people. So whilst -- as Srini was mentioning, we are growing our total advances by about 19.5%. It's not a small amount, you're adding almost about a bank within a bank.

So we will see people being invested in the branch banking area. We will see in the retail asset area. We will see in the agri distribution because agri is far more intensive. We will see people in this sustainable livelihood because that's something where we are very proud of. We give back to society, it also sort of helps us in -- it's a good -- great business model.

So combination of all this is where we have seen a 17% growth. So you will see people moving. But as Srini was mentioning, the jaws will continue to be -- the gap will be there. If the revenue is growing at 21%, we'll try and maintain the jaws between the 17% and 18% of expenses growth. Or if the revenues were to come down, so would the costs be. So that kind of play we will always have, and that's the kind of a strategy that we are going with.

So I've explained to you on the people side. The second one is on the margins, where you are saying that the margins have come up from 4.3% to 4.2% from June quarter to the September quarter. That's principally, as you also alluded to it, I think we have consciously right from the last 2 years, have been focusing on mobilizing granular retail deposits. Now whether you like it or not, time deposits is necessary, especially when you have a kind of a appetite to grow on the credit side on the asset side. So this is a -- we are very clear that the sales machinery will not be -- we will not -- we don't want a yo-yo the -- in giving directions to the huge distribution that we had to say that, okay, this quarter, you focus on fixed deposits, next quarter, you don't focus. That will sort of really destabilize kind of a sales [machine] that we have created.

So we are happy to have excesses. We are happy to have excess liquidity up to a certain point in time, which is what is reflected in the current margins. As Srini was mentioning, our margins would have been higher by about 15 basis points if we had sort of slowed down the deposits, but from a medium- to long-term, this is the right way to do it. So even if it sort of shaves off a bit of a margin, we are happy, and that is what it is.

The third aspect of this is on the MCLR...

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [85]

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On the external benchmarking, yes, we -- as we

announced, we have chosen the repo as a benchmark, it got kicked off on 1st October. We are seeing incremental volumes will come through that in terms of MSME volumes, or retail floating rate volumes that are there today, which are very, very insignificant, but still whatever it is, it will come through that.

And in our pricing in our ALCO strategy, we have components of repo, plus credit spread, plus other spread that factors-in any kind of hedging or the difference between an MCLR and a repo that we need to factor-in. And so at this moment, the pricing is just fine. As time goes by, we need to see how it will evolve. But as we see now, we are priced neutral to what it was in the past because that's how you get it started. But as we go, we see where it comes. And as the book is renewing, we will figure out. The customer preferences also play a role here.

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Operator [86]

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The next question is from the line of Jai Mundhra from B&K Securities.

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Jai Mundhra, Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., Research Division - Research Analyst [87]

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I have one question, especially on retail credit growth. So if you look at this quarter, retail, either if you look at the regulatory basis or internal basis, it has come down to 14% to 15%. Now that is actually below system retail growth if you look at the RBI data. So I just wanted to understand what is causing this? Are you a bit worried about slowing retail growth? The overall growth anyway, it looks very, very good. But just on this retail growth, is it a base which has become so big that no internal -- incremental growth has become a bit lower? Or as you said that you have increased the filters, which is causing this kind of a thing? Or is just an anomaly?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [88]

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Look, I think Srini did mention almost about 17% of our book on the retail side is the vehicle segment, which has grown only by 2.3%. And that is a fact that you and I cannot sort of ignore because there is an underlying sales, whether it's the auto loan or the 2-wheeler or the commercial vehicle sales that are happening in the market.

So if you exclude that, the growth is not so bad, given that the Basel, it comes to retail, excluding vehicle load, it's about 19% growth. And even from our own internal perspective, it's about 17.5% or 18% growth.

So you need to look at it from that perspective. Having said that, let's face it, yes, [had first] consumption slowed down a bit, absolutely, there is, you cannot deny that. But I think the banks, if you have seen the kind of buzz that we've been creating, we seem to be sort of -- we believe the kind of properties that we have created, whether it's the distribution or the kind of marketplace that we have or the kind of credit card offers that we are doing, all the kind of buzz -- the partnerships that we've created in the recent past, we believe that we should see a reasonable amount of healthy growth going forward. But let's face it, I mean, these are some expectations. We hope it sort of converges to our expectations, but I think, we are well positioned to that.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [89]

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If I can add over here, once again, whatever growth is coming is good growth. It is well selected, and the indicators are in good order. So it's the healthy part of the growth.

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Operator [90]

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The next question is from the line of [Sanjay Kular] from [ACME Private Limited].

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Unidentified Analyst, [91]

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I have a few questions. What will be the impact of tax rate cut on our profitability? Secondly, sir, we have raised INR 25,000 crore about a year ago, any more fundraising plans through equity or bonds in the near future? Yes, please. Then, I have another couple of questions. Can you please...

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [92]

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I mentioned in the call the impact of the tax -- the net impact of the tax rate change, INR 450 crores that was mentioned. What's your second question?

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Unidentified Analyst, [93]

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INR 450 crores annually?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [94]

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No.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [95]

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No, no. For the quarter.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [96]

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In the quarter -- what we have taken in the quarter.

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Unidentified Analyst, [97]

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Okay, sir.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [98]

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What's your second question?

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Unidentified Analyst, [99]

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Fundraising plans through equity bonds?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [100]

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We are adequately capitalized as we speak. I think when we do have a requirement and when we have better clarity on the regulatory provisions relating to tax and the other aspects, which is still in debate, we probably will think about perpetual bonds in the future and not at this juncture.

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Unidentified Analyst, [101]

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Okay, sir. And a couple of more questions. Sir, what is the -- our banks focus on corporate loans portfolio as business prospects for Axis Bank and ICICI looks better -- more better than our bank as far as corporate portfolio is concerned. So what do you have to comment on this?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [102]

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I'm not too sure where you're getting this particular kind of perception. So I really do not know how to answer that. I have not understood your question at all.

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Unidentified Analyst, [103]

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My -- I mean that why Axis Bank and ICICI Banks are [told] corporate banks and we are more of a retail bank and not much focus on the corporates.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [104]

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Well, that's for you to say, I mean, for all of you, obviously, even our corporate -- our corporate has been growing very steadily. In fact, in the recent past, slightly faster than our normal long-term average. So we are -- we may be one of the largest retail banks in the country, but we are also a very strong wholesale or corporate bank as well, whether it's in the working capital space or even on the term side. In fact, on the term side, we are probably one of the second largest distributors, whether it's the loan or the debt syndication as well.

And as you can see, we have been maintaining this kind of a ratio of about 45% to 50% on the wholesale side for some time, which means that even the wholesale has been growing pretty steadily. I'm not too sure. I don't have a comparison as to what kind of a -- what is the kind of proportion? Or what is the kind of balance sheet on the wholesale side the other banks have, but I can talk for ourselves. I think we are reasonably well positioned, both on retail and wholesale. And this is where the growth is going to come in now and in future as well.

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Unidentified Analyst, [105]

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Okay, sir. And one last question. Are we looking at expanding banking beyond Indian boundaries into Asia or Middle East or other countries?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [106]

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I think we have said this in the past, I think we are very -- the opportunity that India provides is so immense that we would like to spend our energies out here. We are pretty happy with the kind of the proportion of our overseas branches are giving. I think -- I don't think we will sort of scale that up in the near future.

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Operator [107]

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The next question is from the line of Raj Purohit (sic) Ravi Purohit from SiMPL.

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Ravi Purohit;Securities Investment Mgmt. Pvt. Ltd.;Chief Investment Officer, [108]

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This is Ravi Purohit here. Most of my questions have been answered, but just wanted to understand about the deferred tax element on our P&L. I mean it might sound a little naive. I just wanted to understand, how is it getting created every year? And how does it get reversed? And what is the impact of this tax cut on the deferred tax numbers?

And also whether -- so, even in this quarter, our reported tax rate was about 30%. But has actually -- the tax rate has been reduced to 25%. So just wanted to understand how is the adjustment being made?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [109]

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Okay. First, the deferred tax rate, right, how it is created? That's the difference between the book profit and the tax profit. The book profit, example -- one particular example we can give you is take the provisions. Provisions are made according to accounting standards and according to RBI guidelines. Tax allows provisions in a different formula. One, it has to be fully written off, and two, there is some formula-based deductions. So they're always -- the tax allows for these credit provisions at a scale, which is lower than what the book takes. So because of that, we have to create deferred tax -- according to the accounting standards, we have to create deferred tax asset. So that is how the tax -- deferred tax is created on the books.

And we have to evaluated deferred tax on an annual basis, considering what the prevalent tax rates are and the ability to consume going forward. So to the extent that we perceive profitability and the tax rate remains stable, the deferred tax continues to be on the books without any change. There will be in and out. You consume and then you put back, that goes on.

In terms of this quarter, the tax rate changed. So we are off with the new tax rate from the previous tax rate of 34.7% to 25.17% -- 25.2%. That would mean we have to evaluate the carrying value of the deferred tax asset and revalue to the current tax rate, right? And that impacted INR 1,650 crores we said earlier in the call, that was a onetime charge that was taken.

Getting to your third aspect of the question, which is if the tax rate is 25.2%, why is the effective tax rate 32% or thereabouts? Because what happens is that you have to take this charge of INR 1,200 crores. So the tax rate year-to-date comes to 25.2%. But since you reevaluate the deferred tax and take a charge on that, that takes it to 25.2% goes to 32%. And then when you go into next quarter, you will see it is back to 25.2% because that onetime adjustment is already factored in and then it goes as business as usual.

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Ravi Purohit;Securities Investment Mgmt. Pvt. Ltd.;Chief Investment Officer, [110]

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Okay. So in the next quarter, our reported tax rate itself will drop to 25.17%?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [111]

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Closer to the margin rate. Yes. I can't pinpoint exactly 25.17%, but that is the more or less, plus/minus, that's the kind of rate you should expect, yes.

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Ravi Purohit;Securities Investment Mgmt. Pvt. Ltd.;Chief Investment Officer, [112]

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Sir, again, a very basic question. Under what circumstances or what needs to happen for us to consume the deferred tax asset?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [113]

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What -- how do you consume the deferred tax asset?

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Ravi Purohit;Securities Investment Mgmt. Pvt. Ltd.;Chief Investment Officer, [114]

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Yes. So in the last few years, we've been only seeing it rise significantly [and I'm] presuming because we've made higher provisions and the taxmen have not allowed us to kind of...

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [115]

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If you -- the provisions we create, creates this deferred tax asset. And if there is an actual write-off that happens, then the taxman will allow this write-off to be deducted for tax purposes, at which time it will get consumed.

There are a couple of other things like depreciation differences and so on. Again, think about an asset, which is on a straight line on books or an asset, which is on a written down value of a certain tax purposes. That's only one asset in the company, which gets to book value of 0, that it gets consumed. So I'm giving you a theoretical answer on that, but that's how you should think about.

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Ravi Purohit;Securities Investment Mgmt. Pvt. Ltd.;Chief Investment Officer, [116]

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It's for us, but it's predominantly to do with the provisions, right?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [117]

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A big piece of that is to do with the provisions. And there will be some timing. For example, subordinated debt that we have, we accrue for subordinated debt based on the coupons, taxman will allow it to only when you pay the interest expense on the debt. So period to period, there will be some small changes. For example, if we need to -- if the coupon date is 30th May and 31st March, we have to accrue, and there will be a deferred tax asset. And then the next year, it will come. So it's a running account in and out, in and out.

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Operator [118]

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The next question is from the line of Udit Gadia from Khazanah Nasional.

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Udit Gadia;Khazanah Nasional;Assistant Vice President, [119]

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You spoke about the growth in insurance business has been pretty strong for us. And even you mentioned that we have seen a change in the product mix. So my first question is, what kind of change in product mix we have witnessed?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [120]

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For life insurance product mix change.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [121]

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More term loans -- there are term product as against more short-term or the so-called ULIP product -- we call it a ULIP product. So when you sell more of the term product, obviously, the yields are much better.

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Udit Gadia;Khazanah Nasional;Assistant Vice President, [122]

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So it's -- is it basically the retirement product of HDFC Life?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [123]

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As you know, we now patronize not just the HDFC product, but also the other 2 partners, which is [Aditya] and Birla. Now they contribute to almost about 29% of our business. So it's a combination of all the 3.

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Udit Gadia;Khazanah Nasional;Assistant Vice President, [124]

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And how has the share of the other 2 partners moved versus last year?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [125]

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Which is what I have just said. I think it's now 29%. The last year is, I think, was about 20%.

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Udit Gadia;Khazanah Nasional;Assistant Vice President, [126]

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Okay. [So that was up by 10].

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [127]

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Last year was also about 25%. So it's now 29%.

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Udit Gadia;Khazanah Nasional;Assistant Vice President, [128]

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Okay. And sir, lastly, given the commission rates on mutual funds have fallen. So has there been a conscious strategy from the branch employees to focus more of cross-sell on insurance versus mutual funds?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [129]

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That it's not a strategy that we tell them sell this or sell that. It is also -- there is a customer preference in play, right? The customer need is the predominant one that determines whether it is insurance or mutual fund.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [130]

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Yes. But having said that, as Srini was mentioning, we don't sort of actually sort of try and push something. If you really look at it sequentially, the mutual fund volumes other than liquid funds have actually gone up by about 6%.

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Operator [131]

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The next question is from the line of Hiral Desai from Anived PMS.

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Hiral Desai, Anived Portfolio Managers Pvt. Ltd - Portfolio Manager [132]

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I actually had a question on the asset quality in the auto book. And this is from your disclosure in the 20-F. Now I see a very sharp rise in FY '19, it has gone up by about 45 basis points. I do appreciate that the 20-F numbers are on a consolidated basis. But just wanted to understand what led to such a sharp spike in the GNPAs in auto?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [133]

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Yes. So that is principally because of the fact that there were a couple of larger dealership accounts, which went bad. It was not something that is in granular. These were slightly more [prominent] kind of accounts and which is what we tag them as an NPA in FY '19. So you do see kind of a jump from about 98 basis point to 1.43. So that's your 45 basis point increase. That was the reason for that. Otherwise, as Jimmy did mention, the core auto loan portfolio has been pretty much very stable even in the current scenario as we speak.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [134]

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Barring the denominator effect due to the market, it has been stable. Moreover, we have the early indicators that are actually showing a better trend as compared to the recent past.

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Hiral Desai, Anived Portfolio Managers Pvt. Ltd - Portfolio Manager [135]

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And Jimmy, just on the -- just reading on your early indicators' comment, would it be fair to assume that in terms of retail, delinquencies would have topped out, ex of the agri portfolio?

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Jimmy M. Tata, HDFC Bank Limited - Chief Risk Officer [136]

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I don't think we can make that sort of a statement, but the early indicators are showing a better trend.

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Hiral Desai, Anived Portfolio Managers Pvt. Ltd - Portfolio Manager [137]

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And lastly, on the semi-urban and rural book, can you give us some flavor, ex of the agri, generally, how has the growth been?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [138]

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I did mention, I think we did sort of talk about it. I think, in fact, ex agri -- in fact, I said ex vehicle segment, ex vehicle segment in the sequential quarter has been pretty strong. Retail ex vehicle segment has been very strong. So it's about...

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [139]

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17.5%, 18%...

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [140]

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18%. In fact, on a sequential basis, it's about 6% ex vehicle. So I think other than commercial vehicle, other than probably 2-wheeler, all of the products, whether it's the auto, whether it's the personal loan, whether it's credit cards, whether it be small business banking, whether it's loan against securities, whether it's home loans, gold loans, the KGC loans, which is the farm loans, have all seen reasonably healthy trends in this quarter.

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Hiral Desai, Anived Portfolio Managers Pvt. Ltd - Portfolio Manager [141]

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And sir, lastly, on SmartBuy, could you share the number of carded customers who are already sort of operating on that platform or have bought something through that platform?

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [142]

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I don't have the numbers as we speak. I don't think we have ever given that in the public domain. But frankly, even as we speak, I don't have that readily available. Maybe let me just mull this over and maybe we can give you -- give it to you...

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Hiral Desai, Anived Portfolio Managers Pvt. Ltd - Portfolio Manager [143]

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Sir, broadly, what would be the penetration within your carded base on people who actually transact through the SmartBuy platform as of now?

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [144]

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Sorry, I don't have those numbers, Hiral. Maybe I need to sort of dig deeper into that particular asset. I will have it off-line.

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Operator [145]

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Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vaidyanathan for his closing comments.

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Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, HDFC Bank Limited - CFO [146]

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Okay. Thank you, Lisan, and thank you all for participating. If there are more questions or any other information you need, feel free to call our Investor Relation. Ajit Shetty would be able to provide you the answers. Thank you.

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Sashidhar Jagdishan, HDFC Bank Limited - Head of Finance [147]

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Thank you.

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Operator [148]

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Thank you, members of the management team. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of HDFC Bank Limited, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.